Splitting the Northern

[Tubeboy]

What do members think about splitting the Northern? So all Barnets go via the Bank and all Edgwares go via the cross? This usually hapens when the Northern is operating a "special service", to recover as quickly possible and back to normal, following a suicide or more usually a signal failure. Of course the Northerns great advantage is that it has two routes through the centre of town, but I remember in the aftermath of the Camden derailment, the service ran a lot better when all Barnets went one way and the Edgwares the other, yes there were still delays, but even some of the customers said it was more reliable!!!. It would put more pressure on Kennington and particularly Camden Town. How about experimenting with it, say in the off peak first. I am sure rosters, stepping back etc could be amended with a bit of work. At the moment, a bad enough signal failure in the morning peak, can result in disruption right until the close of traffic, which is down to the many branches and trying to satisfy all the branches emanating from Camden Town, with equal numbers of trains. I am sure many people would balk at this idea, but if a more reliable service was the result, shouldnt we give it a go?

[version3point1]

I totally agree. It would make far more sense to split the Northern Line up, as at the moment it really lookes like there's far too much on one plate. I think it should at least be trialed, especially if it received such positive feedback.

[Deleted]

Sometimes, it is tried out inadvertently coz of engineering TTNs that require it. A Hampstead - Edgware blockade a few years back springs to mind.

So it has been trailed out, and I’ve heard varying opinions about how successful it was. Its one of those issues that is so subjective, its very opinionated and no one opinion can be considered so much more practical than the other in terms of which is the best to operate it.

Recently I spoke to someone in LU who was several grades higher than me, and is often involved in these types of planning decisions, about the Northern Line. He told me that one of the biggest barriers to splitting the line up like that was because of Camden Town and Kennington stations, and how compact and small they are in managing large crowds…which increase even more when more people have to change between the two stations. As it is, Camden Town is officially way out only on Sundays. He said that when Camden Town and Kennington stations are re-developed, or more likely if, then this can then be revisited.

From a timetable point of view, Morden depot provides the vast bulk of Northern Line trains, so whichever section has the Morden branch taken away, means that it places additional strain on the other branch in terms of rolling stock availability. Same goes for train operator coverage as Morden is a big train crew depot. It will need a complete rewrite but is possible with enough time.

From an operational point of view, the two trunk sections and the two branches give the Line Controller more options to send trains to different destinations in times of disruption, so a service can still be run, rather than being stopped with nowhere to go. Splitting the line into two sections removes that option – unless drivers can retain their knowledge of both sections on a regular basis.

But there is so little reversing capacity, especially on the Morden branch, where Tooting Broadway and Kennington siding reversers will temporarily block the SB line, and Morden acts as a bottleneck – reversing 20 TPH in the off peak using all three platforms there is very intensive – probably the most intensive off peak of all the LU network, without stepping back.

So going south, there is probably no opportunity for late trains to be able to recover time.

Going north, there is Golders Green and Finchley Central, which doesn’t appear to be enough.

So IMO the real solution is to invest in new reversing locations, perhaps a new small branch on the southern side of the Northern Line, that could make a more practical split of the Northern Line into two sections. But that is horrendously expensive, and hence a non starter.

At the moment, there is all kinds of research into trying to improving the Northern Line timetable. Anything can theoretically work, but trying to deliver something that is robust and is able to recover from disruption is very difficult with the Northern Line. Splitting up the line into two sections is a convenient way of doing that which is within our means, but there is a significant section of people, managers and commuters who have and will continue to campaign against it. There’s a new WTT on the Northern Line this October, but that’s dealing with other issues,

Tubeboy, at the moment there are a series of weekend shutdowns on the Northern Line where there is no service on the Charing Cross branch. I’d be interested to know whether you’ve been checking it out and how all the trains run via Bank.

[Tubeboy]

Yes, some interesting points there soultrain, as for the Charing x branch closure, I work on the camden group so am all too familiar with this work.!!! Cant wait until 15th july, when it is shut from Camden to East Finchley, great, will have to bus it to/from work!! ;D

[Tubeboy]

Have noticed some of the trains are reversing at Euston, and every 15 minutes, one is booked to reverse via Kennington siding. Northbound some are terminating at Finchley Central, lets hope something doesnt happen on the Bank branch eg security alert, signal failure, that will decimate the service. Moorgate has of course the crossover but they would dent flexibility a bit, if something did occur between Moorgate and Kennington.

[Deleted]

tubeboy said:

Have noticed some of the trains are reversing at Euston, and every 15 minutes, one is booked to reverse via Kennington siding. Northbound some are terminating at Finchley Central, lets hope something doesnt happen on the Bank branch eg security alert, signal failure, that will decimate the service. Moorgate has of course the crossover but they would dent flexibility a bit, if something did occur between Moorgate and Kennington.

I have been losing loads of sleep over this Charing Cross blockade timetable! So it’s a relief to hear its not all THAT bad.

This involves a train every 5 minutes on the Edgware branch, and a train every 5 minutes on the High Barnet/MHE branch – a reduction on these two sections, but they all combine to give a 2.5 minute, 24 TPH service down the Bank branch!! Which is bizarrely more frequent than the MF peaks of 20 TPH. And usually its 16 TPH during the weekends – which I’m sure you know anyway.

And to make the timetable more tight, as you rightly mention, there are Kennington Siding reversers every 15 minutes. So amongst a 2.5 minute train service into Kennington, there are trains that reverse and need very quick detraining.

So with that intensive service, trains easily pick up late running and unscheduled Euston reversers are expected, to create some breathing space down the Bank branch; I can imagine the guys at Cobourg Street spitting blood over this!

I’ve travelled on the Northern Line, every weekend of the closure so far, and I am surprised to see it work fairly well. All the trains are somehow in turn, and also late running not exceeding 5 minutes.

I also went down to Kennington station to check out the detrainment there. There are supposed to be at least two people there to do that, and I’ve only ever seen one (one of them a DMT I think). Which I think is very unfair, and yet I know that Kennington have struggled to resource the detrainment requirements. The driver always helps out though. I spoke to an S/A there on duty, and he was surprisingly enthusiastic about it all. His main complaint was with how many passengers were complaining to him about why they never knew about the closures in the first place.

I have also noticed that the Kennington siding reversers are axed at some points of the day. Which the line controller can easily do, as the service is compiled so it’s a self contained MHE – Kennington round service. Axeing this frees up seven trains, one of which can easily form a MHE – Finchley Central shuttle. It means though there can be big intervals between Camden and Finchley Central.

And as you rightly mention, a hold up anyway on the Bank branch has very disruptive consequences on the service, and I don’t think there has been one yet, thankfully. There was a security alert at Tooting Broadway a few weekends back which the line managed to deal with fairly well.

Back to your original topic, I’ve always thought that the Bank branch of the Northern Line needs more trains in the MF rush hour as Bank station is crushed. And this is where splitting the Northern Line could help, say for example we split the line Edgware – Morden via Bank, then something like the 24 TPH could run through the Bank branch and could be handled at Edgware and Golders Green on the north side, and at Morden on the south side with stepping back, or a combination of Morden and Kennington siding reversers as is happening now during these closure weekends, to boost layovers…assuming there are enough trains for it, and the fact that the remaining split section (High Barnet – Kennington via CX), can handle having no access to Golders or Morden depot!

[mrjrt]

…assuming there are enough trains for it, and the fact that the remaining split section (High Barnet – Kennington via CX), can handle having no access to Golders or Morden depot!

Well, they'll have highgate, just think how much easier this would all be if only Bushey Heath depot had had its rails laid

[Deleted]

soultrain said:

Back to your original topic, I’ve always thought that the Bank branch of the Northern Line needs more trains in the MF rush hour as Bank station is crushed. And this is where splitting the Northern Line could help, say for example we split the line Edgware – Morden via Bank, then something like the 24 TPH could run through the Bank branch and could be handled at Edgware and Golders Green on the north side, and at Morden on the south side with stepping back, or a combination of Morden and Kennington siding reversers as is happening now during these closure weekends, to boost layovers…assuming there are enough trains for it, and the fact that the remaining split section (High Barnet – Kennington via CX), can handle having no access to Golders or Morden depot!

But whatever you do with the Northern Line, you still need to keep the peak 30tph from Kennington to Morden. It is one of most crowded sections of the tube.

[mowat]

If the planers of the 1920s could have known what we know now
I wonder if they would still have joined the C&SLR and the CE&HR to make the Northern?

[Deleted]

Somebody asked this very question to Tim O'Toole at the 'time to talk' events earlier in the year. The reply from T-O-T was that the Kennington - Morden branch couldn't cope with a seperated service.

IMHO you need more reversers at Tooting Broadway. If staff were provided (2 on platform) a train could be emptied in about 90 seconds. Reducing the congestion @ Morden and providing a few extar seats for the poor punters of Balham, Clapham etc

[Deleted]

centralsimon said:

Somebody asked this very question to Tim O'Toole at the 'time to talk' events earlier in the year. The reply from T-O-T was that the Kennington - Morden branch couldn't cope with a seperated service.

IMHO you need more reversers at Tooting Broadway. If staff were provided (2 on platform) a train could be emptied in about 90 seconds. Reducing the congestion @ Morden and providing a few extar seats for the poor punters of Balham, Clapham etc

Well if the branch is overcrowded to that extent then a relief line should really be introduced, if only travelling from south London to the city as the Bakerloo does for the north in the beginning at least, so that the Northern can be separated and so as to provide a better service for the south London punters. If it travels to all the right places, then, like the Victoria line was, it's definately worth the cost of implementing as the benefits will be dramatic for commuters.

If only we lived in a common sense world.....

[CSLR]

There is of course a way to provide a really quick turnround at Tooting (or at any other siding in the event of engineering works or an emergency), but I calculate that it would require at least at least one extra T/O - maybe two - and a small amount of work in the siding in question. You could set back by getting the NB T/O to join the rear of the train in the station before it entered the siding.
After the train left the siding and stopped at the NB platform, the old SB T/O could leave the train and walk forward to join the rear of an incoming SB train ready to repeat the process.

[Deleted]

cslr said:

There is of course a way to provide a really quick turnround at Tooting (or at any other siding in the event of engineering works or an emergency), but I calculate that it would require at least at least one extra T/O - maybe two - and a small amount of work in the siding in question. You could set back by getting the NB T/O to join the rear of the train in the station before it entered the siding.
After the train left the siding and stopped at the NB platform, the old SB T/O could leave the train and walk forward to join the rear of an incoming SB train ready to repeat the process.

The above practise is commonly used on the Moscow metro, and sometimes used on the Paris and Madrid metros.

Although double ending allows for a fast turnaround, the capacity at reversing in sidings stations is ultimately limited by the headway through the arrival/tipping out platform. Assuming the run out run in time being approx 60secs, this means that there is just 60secs to tip out a train without causing delays to a 30tph service. This would realistically require 3 members of platform staff. Morden seems to be able to cope with 30tph reasonably well anyway, although whether it will cope with the planned post upgrade 35tph is anyones guess!

[Deleted]

Surely this is in some ways, already in effect? I've noticed that most trains to Edgware run via Bank, and most trains to High Barnet/MHE, run via Charing Cross.

Actually, I can't remember when I last saw a train to Edgware run via Charing Cross I've seen, although rarely, trains to High Barnet via Bank though.

Although one thing that springs to mind is that, rather unluckily, although they are quite common, I have travelled either during or after there is/has been a signal failure. Do they usually do this if there has been a signal failure, to reduce congestion?

[Tubeboy]

Trains to High Barnet and Edgware do run via Bank and via The cross. Sometimes though you get say three Edgwares or three Barnets one after the other. Off peak, all mill hill trains run via charing cross, this was introduced to try and improve the reliability of the branch and also provide a regular service between the west end and Finchley Central [in conjunction with Barnet trains]. From october, wtt 50 will commence and the Mill Hill East branch will be a shuttle from Finchley central, off peak during the week. Through services will operate in the peaks and at weekends. Have noticed the last couple of weekends when there is a supposed to be a five minute interval on both the Edgware and Barnet branches, therefore a 24tph service on the Bank side [charing cross branch closed] should be in operation, however trains have been coming in every 10-12 minutes, for large parts of the day.

[towerman]

Until the mid eighties,apart from the peaks the service was to all intents and purposes split,Edgware-Morden via Bank and Barnet/MHE via C/X to Kennington,there was only one exception to this a Golders- Kennington service via C/X.Also the train number told you what branch it was on 1 upwards were C/X.101 upwards were Bank.