CSLR sidings at Old St, Elephant and Stockwell

[motormanmet]

Just a few questions:

Firstly, i know there was a siding (between the running lines?) at Old St, i think it was removed during the 1922-24 rebuilding. Where abouts was this? When i was a driver on the northern, i don't recall seeing anywhere where it could have been (though i suppose it could have been hidden when the tunnels were enlarged?). Likewise at Elephant. I have in my LT documentation references to the CSLR signalbox at Old St being coded 'L' and that at Elephant 'Q'. This is logical as these codes fit around the others and automatic colour-light signalling was introduced 1919-20 on the CSLR, yet no other sources confirm this. Any ideas?

Also, the siding at Stockwell, i have seen reference on this forum that it was in the tunnel diverging to the left of the SB line just before the site of the old station/crossover adjacent to the incline in the other direction. However, i have a LT photo from 1962 showing this tunnel blocked off after 50 yards, the IMR having subsequently been built there. According to the signalling plans i have the siding trailed in from the left just before the platform (you can still partly see this today) and was only closed in 1962. I am sure there are many other old CSLR sidings there but does anyone know the layout?

[Deleted]

CSLR is no doubt typing in one of his excellent monologues right now, but I do believe that there are in fact multiple sidings branching from the s/b tunnel north of the Stockwell crossover cavern. One of these is of course the access to the lift, while the other was an access to an underground siding complex, built to allow light maintenance to be done without lifting the trains out.

[CSLR]

The Old Street siding was in a separate tunnel between the running tracks entered via a facing crossover at the south end of the southbound tunnel. There was no access between it and the northbound line.
Elephant and Castle also had a siding between the running tunnels entered via a trailing crossover at the north end of the southbound tunnel. The siding re-entered the northbound line through another trailing crossover in the running tunnel to the north of the station.
Almost all traces of these sidings were destroyed during the reconstruction.
Stockwell is an underground maze. It was originally an island platform terminus with access to the lifts through the side wall of the station tunnel*. In 1893 the southbound running tunnel was extended to form a siding. Just after passing through the headwall, there was a facing crossover leading to a second siding to the east; the two tunnels running parallel with each other. In 1897 the loco spur that sat alongside the southbound tunnel, just before it entered the old station from the north, was extended to create another siding know as the 'loop' **. This ran behind the east wall of the station tunnel and joined up with the 1893 sidings at the south end of the station.
When the line was extended to Clapham, one of the 1893 sidings was extended to form the southbound line, leaving the second 1893 siding (roughly on the site of the present southbound station tunnel) and the 1897 loop. The entrance to the loop tunnel is the one that I think that you mention having seen in a photo. It was later bricked up at the north end of the station in roughly the position that had been the end of the old locomotive spur. This tunnel still survives although the second 1893 siding was destroyed when the station tunnels were relocated.
When the locomotive/carriage lift was installed, further siding tunnels were constructed to provide additional underground accommodation and access to this lift. These tunnels are now cable runs and the Victoria Line cuts through them.
To add to the confusion, there are also deep-level shelters tangled up with this lot and the partial remains of the old incline tunnel that lead to the depot.
Regarding the question of signal box codes. I will check my diagram that covers the introduction of automatic signalling, but I am pretty sure that these codes were contemporary to that event.

* Just before the line was extended to Clapham, a staircase was thrown up to form a new higher level access to the passenger lifts (similar to island platform exit at Clapham Common). This was necessary because the new line from Clapham cut through what had been the passenger exit from the platform.
** This was not a loop in the sense of Kennington or Heathrow. It was a reasonably straight tunnel that simply looped behind the station tunnel; although it was theoretically possible to uncouple a locomotive from the south end of a train on the southbound line, run it round and couple it up to pull the same train north or off towards the depot/sidings.

[CSLR]

I have checked the signal diagram that shows the 1913 proposal for automatic signalling. This gives signal box names but no codes.
When I have a moment, I will check through the Traffic Notices from then to 1925 to see when these first came into use.

[tubeprune]

CSLR, I wish I could relate your wonderful description to the tunnels I found when I was down there a while back (don't ask ). I ended up in a tunnel next to the running line. Ahead was a tunnel full of cables off to the right. I think this was the siding mentioned by motormanmet. At that moment the battery on my torch failed and I and my colleague ended up using our key ring lights and the lights from passing trains to find my way back to the access tunnel.

Interesting though.

[CSLR]

With heightened security and H&S regulations, much of Stockwell is now hidden. So here is an image of the location that we have been discussing. The old station is in the foreground, new station in the distance. The loop siding runs off to the left and behind the old station. It was closed and blocked off when this picture was taken.
Some of the cables heading towards the cable run through the old lift siding can be seen in the roof.




And this is what it might have looked like in 1892, before the construction of any of the underground sidings and when the loco spur was still in place

[Deleted]

Wow!

Did the person who took the contemporary picture actually try to match perspectives on purpose?

[CSLR]

It was actually the other way around. To a large degree, the painting replicates the perspective of the photograph.
A couple of points to note. The original track level in the station was slightly lower than today. Also, the bricks cut away from right hand side of the tunnel wall were removed to prevent the original Ashbury carriages hitting the wall when entering the very tight crossover. A similar layer of bricks was removed at King William Street.

[motormanmet]

Wow...thanks for that CSLR, cleared up a lot of queries i had when working on the northern. Where else were there loco/reversing sidings pre-1924? I know of the old sidings at Euston and Angel, how about Moorgate (think there was a loco spur there, perhaps where the current crossover now is?), London Bridge and Kennington (before the re-arrangements).

What is your/are your diagrams like? I have complete plans of the line after the 1923-24 reconstruction - have you got any signalling plans of the 1919-20 colour-light signalling?

[trainopd78]

I had the chance to walk through some of those tunnels when I worked there and I knew of some of their history, but this info puts things in a different perspective. I may have to see if I can revisit now I have this better info. Fascinating. Thanks

[CSLR]

Signalling
I have now checked through the paperwork and can confirm that the signal box codes first make an appearance with the introduction of automatic signalling. This does not necessarily mean that letters were not allocated prior to automation, it simply means that no reference was made to them. All signalling diagrams that I have seen prior to 2 November 1919 (the date when the first section went live) show numbers relating to the signal levers without any prefix.
In a way this makes sense, as the system follows what is pretty much an alphabetical system. Such a system could not have followed such a sequence prior to the introduction of automatic signalling as there would have been other signal boxes between the letters. If you look at the signal box codes you will see what I mean; there is no space between J-K-L-M for Kings Cross, Weston Street or City Road boxes:-

J – Euston
K – Angel
L – Old Street
M – Moorgate Street
P – London Bridge
Q – Elephant & Castle
U – Stockwell
T – Clapham Common

Stockwell is, of course, the odd man out and should logically have the code 'S'. This could not however be used as it was the prefix used to denote an automatic signal.
In reply to your other question on this matter, I have reasonably complete details of the signalling over the entire history of the line (1890 onwards). This includes diagrams showing the type and position of signals and in many cases locking frame diagrams (including one for King William Street). In some instances there are even details of the block equipment in individual cabins. Unfortunately, there was no one source for all of this; it has been a huge jigsaw puzzle putting it together over many years from various original and authenticated documents.


Sidings
Clapham Common - 3 sidings
1 & 2 south of headwall, subsequently swallowed up by the extension south.
Pit siding outside the running tunnels, accessed by a trailing point on the southbound line just north of the crossover.

Stockwell – 5 sidings
1 – This was the original 1893 siding and was accessed by a facing point at the south end of the southbound line immediately after leaving the station. It was roughly on the site of the present southbound platform. This could also be entered from the ‘loop’ siding.
2 – The ‘loop’. This was is behind the eastern wall of the old station. It could be entered directly from the depot incline tunnel, but it was only accessible from the running lines by means of a double shunt - thus a loco/train entering it could only do so from siding 1 or siding 3.
3 – 5 were all accessed from a trailing point on the southbound line just north of the crossover.
3 – This siding ran outside the running tunnels and parallel with the southbound line. Sidings 1 – 3 formed a continuous line.
4 – 5 These were the ‘lift’ sidings and ran out underneath the depot.
There was also one other siding that had been opened in 1893, but this became part of the southbound line when the extension to Clapham Common was constructed.

Elephant & Castle
One siding between the running tunnels, entered by a trailing crossover in the southbound tunnel at the north end of the station. The siding re-entered the northbound line through another trailing crossover in the running tunnel to the north of the station.

Borough
Although the track was lifted after the King William Street branch was closed, a trailing point on the southbound line was put in at a later date with a short siding to store the gauging car. Both tunnels to King William Street were subsequently reconnected to use as sidings during the reconstruction. They were never used for operational purposes.

London Bridge
One siding between the running tunnels at the south end of the station, accessed by a trailing point on the northbound line. This trailing crossover continued to another trailing crossover that joined the southbound line. The siding could not be directly accessed from the southbound line.

Bank
Loco siding between the running tunnels at the south end of the station, accessed by a trailing point from the northbound line.

Moorgate Street
Loco siding at the north end of the southbound platform accessed by a facing point.

Old St
One siding between the running tunnels, accessed by a facing point at the south end of the southbound tunnel.

Angel
One siding outside the running tunnels, accessed by a trailing point on the northbound line just south of the crossover. This was the longest siding on the line. At 858 feet, it stretched more than half the distance towards City Rd station.

Euston - 3 sidings
1 & 2 north of the headwall, subsequently swallowed up by the extension north.
Pit siding outside the running tunnels, accessed by a trailing point on the northbound line just south of the crossover.

[Tubeboy]

Cslr, your knowledge is invaluable. Thank you.

[motormanmet]

Many thanks for your detailed explaination.

Stockwell - was the latter-day siding here (up to 1962) situated in the loop tunnel? It trailed in from the east after old stockwell station but just before the new platform, so it makes sense. It was a dead-end at its northern end so that would make sense with the already-mentioned blockage in the loop.

Were the new sidings 3-5 cut across the formation of the old incline?

Was the northbound tunnel in Stockwell island platform always a dead-end at the southern end until the Clapham extension?

Clapham: no traces of the pit siding?

Were the sidings at London Bridge and Moorgate obliterated by the new 1920s crossovers? IIRC these lead/led into a short section of independent running tunnel between the lines.

Presumably nothing left at Bank and Elephant? (i don't ever recall seeing anything there but continuous tunnel).

Sorry for the continuous questions but seeing as you know thought this would be the time to ask!

[motormanmet]

BTW will try and scan in the pic i have of the loop siding at Stockwell, taken from a similar point to the modern-day image above but taken circa 1960-62.

[Deleted]

very interesting stuff there CSLR, thanks for the expert descriptions...

[CSLR]

motormanmet said:

Stockwell - was the latter-day siding here (up to 1962) situated in the loop tunnel? It trailed in from the east after old stockwell station but just before the new platform, so it makes sense. It was a dead-end at its northern end so that would make sense with the already-mentioned blockage in the loop.

To be strictly accurate, the loop (C&SLR siding no.2) was not a dead end at its northern end, it ran on into C&SLR siding no.3. By the time that you are referring to, C&SLR siding no.1 (the siding that the south end of the loop ran into) no longer existed, having been replaced by the new southbound platform. What is not clear to me is whether the loop siding extended into part of C&SLR siding no.3 during the LT years (I have conflicting information on this point). We must bear in mind that LT trains were generally longer than their C&SLR predecessors. In addition 9-car trains operated on the Northern prior to 1962.
From my viewpoint, this is not only outside of the C&SLR operating period but, the track had been lifted and the siding was disused before my first visit to this site. I therefore cannot say with any certainty where this non-C&SLR siding went.
Most diagrams simply show a line to indicate that a siding exists, they do not give precise details of the tunnels that it used. Length will be recorded in Working Timetables for that period (too late a timeframe for me to hold copies of) and that should give an indication of where the track was laid. Maybe another member can help with this information.
Another source would be LU tunnel plans of the period. This should be easy enough to sort out, but because it is not part of the operations of the C&SLR, it is not something that I have needed to research in detail.

motormanmet said:

Were the new sidings 3-5 cut across the formation of the old incline?

No.3 did not, 4 and 5 did in a way, curving out from the station and running underneath the old depot. It is a little more complicated when put into words, but I am reluctant to put too much of a plan on this site as there are now live running tracks running through everything and I do not want anyone trying to use it as a map of what is a very dangerous part of the system. If there are staff who want to see this site, my advice is get a very good reason and a very good guide. This is one location where public access is not possible because of the danger.

motormanmet said:

Was the northbound tunnel in Stockwell island platform always a dead-end at the southern end until the Clapham extension?

Yes, because passenger flow to the island platform ran past this point. No track could cut through here until the new stairway was constructed to take the passengers up from the platform. This happened during the construction of the Clapham extension; the new staircase being opened prior to the inauguration of the extension.
Having said that, a shield chamber was constructed in this headwall when the 1893 sidings were added.

motormanmet said:

Clapham: no traces of the pit siding?

It is still there, hidden behind the current running tunnel. Although some unwanted brick sections were backfilled during the reconstruction (Elephant & Castle signal box is an example), cast iron tube tunnels were simply abandoned. Some places are accessible, some are not. Effectively, if any tunnel was not directly affected by the reconstruction (eg. new tunnels cutting through it, platform extensions, etc) it was left in situ, even if you cannot see it.

motormanmet said:

Were the sidings at London Bridge and Moorgate obliterated by the new 1920s crossovers? IIRC these lead/led into a short section of independent running tunnel between the lines.

If I recall correctly, London Bridge was long enough to have a small section of the siding cut-off and abandoned. BUT, I will have to check the reconstruction plans to confirm this.
Moorgate Street did not have a siding, It had a loco spur that started at the end of the platform and ran into the crossover tunnel assisted by curves in the layout. I will try to sort out a plan of the station when I have a moment.

motormanmet said:

Presumably nothing left at Bank and Elephant? (i don't ever recall seeing anything there but continuous tunnel).

As above. Nothing that can be seen.

[Ben]

9 car trains ran till 1962? I thought they were reformed after the war as block 7car trains?

[CSLR]

benedict said:

9 car trains ran till 1962? I thought they were reformed after the war as block 7car trains?

My wording was 'prior to 1962' - indicating that 9-car trains were running at a time when the siding appears to have been in operational use. This does not mean that the trains were running in 1962 and it does not necessarily mean that the siding was suitable for use by these trains even when they were running.
This was just a comment that I made in answer to another question. In doing so, I offered a route for further research to anyone who wishes to pursue it.

[motormanmet]

I am fairly certain the post-1924 siding was in the loop tunnel or on the site of it, if only for some of it's length, purely because it is in line with the position of the current platform. This is where the 1893 siding CSLR mentions was and as it continued into the loop tunnel, it all seems to make sense.

The reason i say it may have ony used part of the loop tunnel is that the length of this tunnel looks unlikely to have held anything more than a 4-car train, and while still in use, the north end of the loop tunnel had been blocked off so it couldn't have continued into 3 siding. If it was longer than this, a new extension may have been constructed curving slightly away from this blockage, though this is pure speculation. I will have to check the length of this siding on my plans.

[motormanmet]

Having looked at my 1924 signalling diagram, i can't say how long the post-1924 siding was as its length is not marked up. But, the diagram also shows the line from 3,4 and 5 sidings trailing onto the SB line just before the old station site, marked 'FROM DEPOT' - going by this, i'd say if the loop tunnel was used for the siding it would have been obviously enlarged and, if made for full length trains was probably slightly diverted at the northern end to avoid the junction with the depot/SB line. If it was designed only for short length trains, all that would have been done was to use just the existing length of the loop. I don't know when the loop was blocked off at its northern end but i believe it to be around the time of the works mentioned. The line to the depot was kept for a short while after, having been used to transfer old stock away and remove debris from the Northern line works, but had been decomissioned by 1927 (correct if wrong).

The reason i have mentioned 4-car trains is that i remember an old driver talking about the days of short trains, saying that sometimes these would be stabled for part of the day in the Stockwell siding. Also, the date of the abolition of the siding ties in with the end of short trains/uncoupling on the Northern (around 1961) - maybe this ties in with the length/siting of the siding, though this could just as easily be coincidental. Never having been in it, i couldn't say for sure.