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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2006 17:52:29 GMT
Going by Google Earth, there now appears to be some half decent road access to Northumberland Park Depot. Thing is the road (Watermead Way?) would have to be closed, and it's quite busy all week round when I've been down there. Plus it's 47x8 car trains worth, not the 5x4 cars that make up the W&C, and they took a weekend to do that. While I agree the road is there, I'd be very surprised if they craned them in that way considering the impracticalities it would cause, plus it would just take flippin ages too! Thinking about it, what will happen to the 67s when the 09s get delivered? Some are going to Stonebridge Park in engineering hours to expand the fleet for the Watford extension, I'm guessing the rest will be removed by rail (or possibly road?) and taken away for scrap?
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 18, 2006 19:08:54 GMT
So,the 09TS wont be able to travel on other lines if it's out of gauge.What if some work needs doing on the fleet that can only be done somewhere like Acton Works?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2006 19:35:47 GMT
Going by Google Earth, there now appears to be some half decent road access to Northumberland Park Depot. Thing is the road (Watermead Way?) would have to be closed, and it's quite busy all week round when I've been down there. Plus it's 47x8 car trains worth, not the 5x4 cars that make up the W&C, and they took a weekend to do that. While I agree the road is there, I'd be very surprised if they craned them in that way considering the impracticalities it would cause, plus it would just take flippin ages too! Surely it would be a bit easier to crane the cars from truck to track within Northumberland Park, than craning them in from the road next to it! On Google Earth there appears to be road access to beside a depot track on the eastern side of the depot.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2006 19:38:22 GMT
So,the 09TS wont be able to travel on other lines if it's out of gauge.What if some work needs doing on the fleet that can only be done somewhere like Acton Works? If the cars can't go by rail to Acton Works, they will obviously go by road. Personally I think it's a small price to pay for the increased capacity of the 09TS on what is an extremely busy line.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 18, 2006 19:43:14 GMT
I would say that the 67's were actually built to fit the Picc line (smaller tunnels) rather than the, then new, Vic tunnels. As you know, the Picc was their method of transfer onto the line and has the only connection to the rest of the combine. Let me get this straight. The Picc line is the only connection between the Vic and the rest of the world, and the new Vic stock will be too big to fit through the Picc tunnels..... I see the hand of Spike Milligan in this. Not sure what the problem is really. Why do we need Vic line trains running anywhere else on the system? 67's rarely venture onto the rest of the combine and when they do it is generally for superfluous reasons anyway. The connection will be maintained for engineers trains though.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 18, 2006 19:47:38 GMT
So,the 09TS wont be able to travel on other lines if it's out of gauge.What if some work needs doing on the fleet that can only be done somewhere like Acton Works? There won't be. Bombardier will be based in Northumberland Park and will they do the maintenance on their trains.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 18, 2006 19:48:51 GMT
So,the 09TS wont be able to travel on other lines if it's out of gauge.What if some work needs doing on the fleet that can only be done somewhere like Acton Works? If the cars can't go by rail to Acton Works, they will obviously go by road. Personally I think it's a small price to pay for the increased capacity of the 09TS on what is an extremely busy line. Finally, someone who see's the benefits!! ;D
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 18, 2006 19:56:27 GMT
I'm thinking of things that only arise after some years in service,on other lines the depots didn't have the facilities to do heavy repair/mods that Acton has.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2006 20:24:29 GMT
Thats the thing with maintenance issues. it was decided many moons ago to centralise the heavy overhauls at Acton, now it looks like things are turning full circle and being maintained 'locally', if thats the right word.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 18, 2006 20:32:20 GMT
Never did like the idea of depots doing HO,when a train came out of Acton it was like it had just came out of the builders,a train comes off HO in a depot you wouldn't know the difference.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 18, 2006 22:01:13 GMT
Welcome to PPP (and you are welcome to it!!). Different companies owning different fleets, with different warranties and different ways of doing things. I think the key thing about Acton Works is that it isn't Acton Works anymore, it is the Metronet REW and the glory days of LTE are behind us. Is it a crying shame? Too right it is, but thats the way of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2006 22:22:25 GMT
It's swings and roundabouts, isn't it?
On the one hand, there is a bit more space inside the stock for passenger comfort. On the other, there is no possibility of running the stock over the Picc link to other parts of the system if the need should arise. (Or if, during the life of the stock, politicians decide to go back on having one Underground operator.)
I must say that, as a passenger, I never noticed the extra 6 inches available inside an RTW bus compared to an RT.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 18, 2006 22:39:32 GMT
I'm not sure it matters, in the grand scheme of things, if 09ts fit down the Picc or not. Regardless of how the system is operated in the future there will be 48 trains dedicated for use on the Vic with no need to transfer them around. The space issue is all down to PPP and the need for the Infraco's (Metronet/Tubelines) to meet their contractual requirements.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 19, 2006 3:06:44 GMT
So there's been no long term thought given to the possible future use of the 09ts then . Before there are cries of "it's dedicated to the Victoria line", i'm sure there were no plans in 1967 to transfer some of the then new stock to the Bakerloo line 40 years later - but it is happening. As for 67's going for scrap - isn't Island line due for some replacements for their 38ts?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2006 6:01:12 GMT
So there's been no long term thought given to the possible future use of the 09ts then . Before there are cries of "it's dedicated to the Victoria line", i'm sure there were no plans in 1967 to transfer some of the then new stock to the Bakerloo line 40 years later - but it is happening. You're still thinking in terms of the old ways. I'm guessing the arrangement under the PPP contract is that LU don't actually own the trains, much like Alsthom on the Northern and Jubilee lines, thus cascading will likely be less of an occurence from now on anyway. And, half the point of PPP was to get Private companies to fund new train fleets where LU used to be unable to do so because of budget issues, so dedicated train fleets can be created because there is little chance of cascading occurring. And finally, the extra space really is needed (if only a few inches) because the line is overcrowded and there are few other improvements left that can be made to the line to increase its capacity, save a relief line which will be considered after Crossrail is built (yeah, right) As for the 67s, while they could be sent to the Island line I think the 72ts are planned to be sold off as they are purely manual trains, as opposed to the 67s which were designed to be ATO (yes they can be driven in manual but it's only a few years until the Bakerloo is revamped so may as well wait for pure manual trains).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2006 6:28:42 GMT
So there's been no long term thought given to the possible future use of the 09ts then . Yes, and it's called keeping them on the Victoria Line. Personally I think thats it's good that the infracos and LUL are now thinking outside of the box with future plans, as opposed to sticking to traditional ideas (such as "we can't increase train size because the trains won't fit down a line on which they arn't used").
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 19, 2006 14:31:59 GMT
Whilst I do understand that the Vic needs the extra space, and the manufacturers still own the trains - trains are supposed to last around 30 to 40 years, are they not?
PPP has less than 30 years to run and service levels can change in that time. I'm not thinking during PPP - i'm thinking life AFTER PPP!!!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 19, 2006 19:47:03 GMT
Actually Alstom dont own the 96TS,it's owned by TfL.95TS is owned by Alstom,but that was a PFI,nothing to do with PPP.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2006 21:22:02 GMT
Actually Alstom dont own the 96TS,it's owned by TfL.95TS is owned by Alstom,but that was a PFI,nothing to do with PPP. ah, it was Private-something anyway! I should've realised the 96s were TfL because of the JLE. Think I need to get away from this HOT computer.....
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 21, 2006 19:58:54 GMT
Whilst I do understand that the Vic needs the extra space, and the manufacturers still own the trains - trains are supposed to last around 30 to 40 years, are they not? PPP has less than 30 years to run and service levels can change in that time. I'm not thinking during PPP - i'm thinking life AFTER PPP!!! The expected lifetime of the stock will be 40 years. If you get a chance to come down and see the mock up you will appreciate what a difference the extra space actually makes, it is noticeable. There is no possibility of an increase in traffic levels in the lifetime of 09ts unless we build an extension. With a full service under the new signalling there will be more trains than there are platforms in order to meet passenger demand, it will be impossible to increase service levels further unless we couple up and walk them through! LU (for once) are trying to think out of the box on this one. Do we really need to restrict the guage of the train on an already crowded railway just so that we can move stock around to who knows where? The Picc will not have the same signalling system as the Vic in the future, making transfer via the Picc much harder than it is today.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2006 20:44:19 GMT
I'm a bit confused over whether the 09TS mock up is publically accessible on the "market research" dates? If not, how does one end up being "researched"? I walked past today (although I wasn't planning on visiting anyway) at about 5:45ish and everything looked closed. Or are we just going to have to wait till the 4th of August?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 21, 2006 21:50:40 GMT
Erm, I don't know. I will ask and get back to you though. I was there this morning helping with a staff session but we were kicked out at 10 in order for the CAT to commence, so I'm not sure what the public access arrangements are. Trainopd78 came down this morning and we spent quite a long time together discussing the stock and looking around, hopefully he found his visit worthwhile.
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Post by trainopd78 on Jul 24, 2006 17:50:41 GMT
Trainopd78 came down this morning and we spent quite a long time together discussing the stock and looking around, hopefully he found his visit worthwhile. Very definately. I was impressed with the overall design. It wasn't anything too radical, but that extra width on the car body was noticable. I was just gutted that there was no cab to play with. ;D ;D
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Post by yellowsignal on Jul 25, 2006 10:57:08 GMT
I think it's not a bad decision to make the stock bigger. In theory the trains only have to be overhauled once every 10-20 years which means they have to go somewhere else no more than 3 times. This doesnt take into account that most new trains are more or less modular so it can be overhauled piece by piece at different locations. The only thing i think a depot would need is big crane, and northumberland pk depot seems to have that.
Sending it by road looks like more hassle, but is it really? You basically need a big crane and some low loaders. The cost of sending it by road would probably be somewhere around 10,000-20,000 pounds so that's no big deal in the grand scheme of things. (i have no idea how much a rail transfer costs)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2006 10:14:13 GMT
If all else fails, the new stock could be delivered like this: Standard stock being delivered to Morden, 1925
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 28, 2006 8:40:00 GMT
Welcome to PPP (and you are welcome to it!!). Different companies owning different fleets, with different warranties and different ways of doing things. I think the key thing about Acton Works is that it isn't Acton Works anymore, it is the Metronet REW and the glory days of LTE are behind us. Is it a crying shame? Too right it is, but thats the way of the world. What's the point in setting up different works for each line/set of beancounters/company/whatever - Acton worked fine as a central engineering base! Or is that the way the all-important contracts are written ?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 28, 2006 8:49:59 GMT
I'm a bit confused over whether the 09TS mock up is publically accessible on the "market research" dates? If not, how does one end up being "researched"? I walked past today (although I wasn't planning on visiting anyway) at about 5:45ish and everything looked closed. Or are we just going to have to wait till the 4th of August? The 09ts is accessible on CAT days but it is by the invitation of one of the market researchers. AIUI they stop you and go through some questions on the 'street', then you are taken inside and guided around the mock up. Naturally there is full access on the public days.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 28, 2006 8:52:47 GMT
I think it's not a bad decision to make the stock bigger. In theory the trains only have to be overhauled once every 10-20 years which means they have to go somewhere else no more than 3 times. This doesnt take into account that most new trains are more or less modular so it can be overhauled piece by piece at different locations. The only thing i think a depot would need is big crane, and northumberland pk depot seems to have that. Sending it by road looks like more hassle, but is it really? You basically need a big crane and some low loaders. The cost of sending it by road would probably be somewhere around 10,000-20,000 pounds so that's no big deal in the grand scheme of things. (i have no idea how much a rail transfer costs) Thats right - short of major exceptions, I don't imagine that the 09ts will leave the line. Bombardier will carry out all required maintenance at NPD. You do notice the increase in internal space.
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Post by marty on Jul 28, 2006 8:53:44 GMT
If all else fails, the new stock could be delivered like this: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 28, 2006 8:56:21 GMT
What's the point in setting up different works for each line/set of beancounters/company/whatever - Acton worked fine as a central engineering base! Or is that the way the all-important contracts are written ? It's just the way the PPP works. Different companies owning different stock. For example the REW is now under Metronet's control, Tubelines got the Emergency Response unit. Acton was a masterpiece of how LT used to work, there was nothing they couldn't do! Those days are gone and 'we are where we are'.
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