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Post by DrOne on Jun 15, 2008 12:59:08 GMT
Considering the DLR network as a whole, is it really worth rebuilding Tower Gateway?
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Post by ianvisits on Jun 15, 2008 14:14:41 GMT
I doubt there is enough capacity at Bank to teminate all trains there - so a secondary terminus would be needed anyway.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 15, 2008 14:51:10 GMT
Given the amount of people that use Tower Gateway, I'd say there is a need for a DLR station in the area. I have no idea whether Fenchurch Street has spare capacity, but I'm pretty certain that Limehouse wouldn't be able to cope with the number of people who would be changing there.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 15, 2008 20:52:11 GMT
Given the amount of people that use Tower Gateway, I'd say there is a need for a DLR station in the area. I have no idea whether Fenchurch Street has spare capacity, but I'm pretty certain that Limehouse wouldn't be able to cope with the number of people who would be changing there. Especially when not all c2c trains stop at Limehouse. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 21:02:16 GMT
Neither Fenchurch Street or Bank has sufficient capacity, so Tower Gateway has to remain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2008 9:59:53 GMT
I doubt with the current tipping out rules that Bank could handle all 29tph during the morning peak. Tower Gateway can also be used as an emergency terminus if Bank is closed for whatever reason, so it makes sense to keep it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2008 11:48:47 GMT
What are they going to do for a service pattern during the closure?
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Post by cetacean on Jun 16, 2008 12:30:40 GMT
The Beckton services are already terminating short (Poplar or Canning Town) due to the junction rebuilding south of Canning Town and north of West India Quay, so there'll be no additional services at Bank.
Well, almost. City Airport services have been diverted to provide service to Tower Gateway, which means Bank has fewer services than normal. When Tower Gateway closes these go back to Bank, restoring the number of services it had at the beginning of the year.
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Post by DrOne on Jun 16, 2008 14:30:41 GMT
I'm glad that you brought this point up. The very indispensability of TG begs the question how will the line cope with the closure.
Tower Gateway is a very useful city terminal. But if ever it has to close temporarily in the future, hopefully the forthcoming Stratford International branch could provide alternative destination for trains from the branches east of Canning Town, giving passengers more options. Planned improvements to interchange at Limehouse might help too.
On a related issue I don't understand how terminating Beckton trains short helps either the West India Quay or Canning Town projects. Trains still pass over the junctions south of Canning Town and east of Westferry.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 16, 2008 17:47:06 GMT
On a related issue I don't understand how terminating Beckton trains short helps either the West India Quay or Canning Town projects. Trains still pass over the junctions south of Canning Town and east of Westferry. The Beckton service at the moment is just a Beckton-Canning Town shuttle, so they get nowhere near WIQ. I don't understand how it benefits the Canning Town junction developments though. |
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 16, 2008 18:10:10 GMT
London Fenchurch Street does not have the capacity at all. I think TfL or whoever it is that does the DLR developments is going to make a much better interchange between Limehouse DLR and c2c.
Uzair
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 16, 2008 18:13:51 GMT
This is the Real time departures at Poplar today
Platform 1
1 Beckton 1 min
2 KING GEORGE V 2 MINS
3 GALLIONS REACH 4 MINS
19:12
Platform 2
1 Stratford 3 mins
2 TERMINATES HERE 4 MINS
3 TERMINATES HERE 7 MINS
19:12
Platform 3
1 Crossharbour 4 mins
2 CROSSHARBOUR 7 MINS
3 CROSSHARBOUR 14 MINS
19:12
Platform 4
1 Tower Gateway 2 mins
2 TERMINATES HERE 4 MINS
3 TERMINATES HERE10 MINS
19:12
So yeah, there are quite a lot of services terminating at Poplar. Its like the whole service is mucked up on a Monday. Anyone been to WIQ recently. I went yesterday and there is no track north of WIQ from Platform 1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2008 18:59:19 GMT
Just wait till we get the DLR Bank closure that coming.
Tower Gateway needs changing to be able to cope with three cars BEFORE Bank closes for works so when it does they still have a city terminus.
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Post by cetacean on Jun 16, 2008 19:11:28 GMT
Tower Gateway reopens April next year, and the Bank closure is for 5 weeks starting Christmas 2009, so there's no chance of them overlapping.
Beckton services are being cut back to Canning Town in June due to single line working through the flyover construction site. I'm assuming it'll be physically impossible to get between the single track and both platform lines at Canning Town, which they'd need to to run a service west of there.
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Post by DrOne on Jun 18, 2008 0:01:17 GMT
Beckton services are being cut back to Canning Town in June due to single line working through the flyover construction site. I'm assuming it'll be physically impossible to get between the single track and both platform lines at Canning Town, which they'd need to to run a service west of there. Took me a little while to work that one out but I think I finally got it. Seems like Canning Town could essentially be as complex as Camden Town. Basically there is a single line from Royal Victoria to Canning Town and this only goes to the EB platform at Canning Town as it can't reach the WB side. I'm assuming the function of the flying crossover being installed will be to take the WB Beckton over both Woolwich lines? When the final structure is built will there be another flyover to avoid the other conflicting movements over this section? (i.e between the EB Poplar line and both Stratford International lines) |
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Post by cetacean on Jun 18, 2008 0:35:30 GMT
The diagram at the bottom of this page is accurate. Basically there'll be one long viaduct built along the current Canning Town-Royal Victoria route, creating a flying junction at either end. The other two junctions will be flat. And just like Camden Town, southbound trains can leave from either platform. |
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Post by DrOne on Jun 21, 2008 15:58:48 GMT
Yes cetacean, good point about future DLR trains to both destinations leaving from either southbound platform at Canning Town. I've finally clicked as to how limiting the Beckton service to Canning Town might help the Westferry/West India Quay works. It seems that the old flat junction between the Westferry/WIQ line and the Westferry/Poplar line will be restored while the flyover is reconstructed to flyunder the delta junction? In this case having fewer trains going over the flat junction would make sense, hence nixing the Tower-Beckton cervice. If I've got it right the change is very cleverly timed so it's doubly convenient for the grade separation works at Canning Town and Tower Gateway reconstruction too  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2008 10:27:03 GMT
The diagram at the bottom of this page is accurate. Thanks for the link. Quite an interesting layout, and still with some grade level conflicting movements. The DLR is getting a tad complicated! |
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Post by DrOne on Jun 23, 2008 15:53:59 GMT
The link seems to suggest:
Poplar - Beckton - Conflict free
Beckton - Poplar - Conflict free
Poplar - Woolwich - Crosses Woolwich-Stratford line
Woolwich - Poplar - Conflict free
Stratford - Beckton - Conflict free
Beckton - Stratford - Crosses Stratford-Woolwich line
Stratford - Woolwich - Crosses Beckton-Stratford line
Woolwich - Stratford - Crosses Poplar-Stratford line
Track layouts seem to allow for continued operation of shuttles from either of the southbound platforms at Canning Town to both Woolwich and Beckton.
Have any service patterns been proposed?
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Post by cetacean on Jun 23, 2008 16:34:06 GMT
There should be roughly equal numbers of trains in all directions, so trains from any branch will alternate between the two opposite branches.
When Dagenham Dock opens the Beckton-Stratford International service will be diverted (leaving Beckton only with Tower Gateway services) and there'll also be a DD-Canning Town shuttle.
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Post by astock5000 on Jun 23, 2008 19:46:24 GMT
I would run Stratford International to Beckton, and Tower Gateway to Dagenham Dock.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2008 6:33:34 GMT
The plans may have changed, but I don't think there will be any through service from Dagenham Dock to either Tower Gateway or Bank. Presumably that's based on a combination of factors - the direct LTS service from DD to Fenchurch Street; relatively long journey time; easy cross-platform changes along the common route with the Beckton branch; and crucially the lack of capacity at either city terminus to handle another four or six trains per hour.
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Post by happybunny on Jun 27, 2008 16:04:45 GMT
Am I right in thinking that when this station re-opens there will only be one platform ?? Im sorry.. is this progress ??
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Post by Chris M on Jun 27, 2008 17:24:10 GMT
londonconnections.blogspot.com/2008/06/tower-gateway-dlr-closes-for-rebuilding.htmlIt currently has 1 narrow island platform between two tracks. The effectively single-track approach and current service pattern means they're only using one track at a time anyway, so they are rebuilding it to have a single central track with separate arrival and departure platforms to better handle the volume of people using the station. I remember reading somewhere that shortly after the system opened the hourly passenger figures regularly exceeded the anticipated daily figures!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2008 17:27:16 GMT
One track, two platforms. One getting on and one getting off. this way the passangers only flow one way so hopefully speed up exiting and boarding.
Not 100% sure but the station isn't used much by two trains at once to to the track arrangement anyway which goes to one track prior to meeting the Bank branch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2008 10:25:47 GMT
One track, two platforms. One getting on and one getting off. this way the passangers only flow one way so hopefully speed up exiting and boarding. Not 100% sure but the station isn't used much by two trains at once to to the track arrangement anyway which goes to one track prior to meeting the Bank branch. The new layout will have a passing loop between Mint St Junction and Tower Gateway. It is designed to be able to reverse up to 15tph. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2008 22:48:46 GMT
Agreed, the new layout will increase passenger capacity. I can't remember the last time I saw two trains in TG at the same time - the problem with the island platform was that it was simply too narrow for any significant number of passengers.
Even back in 1987-90 with single cars you had trouble handling the passenger flow at peak times. Because of the tourist flow to and from Greenwich the station was under pressure throughout most days, including weekends (until the ~five year weekend closure programme started) and was only temporarily relieved when Bank opened.
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Post by astock5000 on Jun 30, 2008 15:49:43 GMT
they are rebuilding it to have a single central track with separate arrival and departure platforms to better handle the volume of people using the station. Won't some passengers will try to get off the train on to the departure platform? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2008 16:48:41 GMT
I would expect the doors to the arrival platform to be opened first, then after 20 seconds doors to the departure platform to be opened - same arrangement as with the traditional LU lifts when there are landings on both sides.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 1, 2008 0:28:56 GMT
This is also what happens when a train terminates at Loughton, the doors open on the eastbound side, everyone gets off, the driver changes ends, closes the doors to the eastbound platform and opens those on the opposite side of the train.
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