Circles to Go

[astock5000]

I think that it should stay as the Circle line. It having two Paddingtons on the Circle causes confusion, couldn't the H&C station at Paddington be renamed to something like 'Paddington Suburban'?

[citysig]

Mar 6, 2009 19:55:06 GMT metman said:

I'd keep it as the Circle Line. The name is an institution worldwide and I see no reason to change it. Why confuse the issue by having a Hammersmith & City Line and a Circle & Hammersmith Line!

No, just the "Hammersmith & Circle Line" as in a combined name for the yellow and pink lines. The institution remains, and so does the "Hammersmith" bit.

Mar 6, 2009 19:57:14 GMT @21146 said:

However this now means that there are two separate 'Paddingtons' on the same line!

Yes, Paddington (Circle) and Paddington (Suburban). The names in brackets should be added to the map (although for the Circle, maybe change that to avoid confusing the issue even more). Then, although it would still be 2 Paddingtons, they would be as distinguised the same as the 3 Harrow Stations on the Met.

EDIT: I was typing at the same time as astock5000 above. Great minds ;D

[metman]

Yes, split the Paddington Stations by name!

The Circle and H&C are going to be different lines why call them the same thing?

[Deleted]

Better still, Praed Street and Bishops Road, like they used to be. No confusion over the Bakerloo line then either, would come under Praed Street.

[Ben]

The circle line spends more time skirting 'City' then the Hammersmith and City line does, mind...

[Deleted]

Circlesmith anybody?

They've made a decision so let's see how it goes before we shoot it down in flames eh?

Rich

[Deleted]

What about Paddington (High Level) and Paddington (Low Level)? It shows the stations are separate without getting the tourists and stupid people excited about such crazy ideas as Praed Street.

If there are gaps in the service will Circlesmith trains get diverted at Edgware Road, making it possible to stay on the same train round the entire Circle?

[Ben]

In the space of one post, Circlesmith has caught on as the new name

Does anyone know if the walk between paddingtons is the same distance as that between Praed Street and Lancaster Gate? The most effective idea is introducing a suffix, as cjc has mentioned, however it could be anything fitting. My personal choices would be (Suburban) and (Praed Street), or even just the first alone. It doesnt really matter though what they are.

Suffixes are deffinately a missed oppertunity. Some station names just arent descriptive of the places they serve. Perhaps a little pamphlet should be made with each station listing the top 3 traffic destinations from it, with walking distance and rough direction.

Eg; West Ruislip 1) Ickenham Park 50m West
2) Ruislip Golf Club 150m East
3) Ickenham Village 600m West

Isn't there a similar book for station staff? Remember reading one in a GLAP once.

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2009 3:15:32 GMT @cjc said:

If there are gaps in the service will Circlesmith trains get diverted at Edgware Road, making it possible to stay on the same train round the entire Circle?

I envisage all kinds of ad hoc extensions, diversions, curtailments etc as trains still get horrifically delayed on the flat junctions and behind the extra Mets. Regularly telling drivers to do another Circle instead of a booked Hammer and back may create one or two crew relief problems

Although it will be interesting to work the new timetable - and it does look good on paper, I just can't see it being a success. Too many tourists and stupid people about. Kings Cross westbound will be an unpleasant place to hang around in uniform!

On the plus side it will mean no more 3 Circles in the same cab. I'll enjoy that for a few weeks until they admit defeat and bring in an emergency timetable.

[Chris M]

Mar 7, 2009 3:37:52 GMT Ben said:

Does anyone know if the walk between paddingtons is the same distance as that between Praed Street and Lancaster Gate?

Very roughly it is about 400 metres from the Praed Street ticket office to the Bishop's Road office that doesn't sell tickets.
With the same level of accuracy it is about 700 metres from Paddington mainlnie concourse to the street level entrance to Lancaster Gate.
I don't know the start and end points it uses, but the journey planned reckons it's a 5 minute walk between Praed Street and Bishop's Road stations and 8 minutes Paddington Praed Street to Lancaster Gate. I think both are slightly optimistic timings though.

Mar 7, 2009 3:37:52 GMT Ben said:

The most effective idea is introducing a suffix, as cjc has mentioned, however it could be anything fitting. My personal choices would be (Suburban) and (Praed Street), or even just the first alone. It doesnt really matter though what they are.

I agree that there will need to be suffixes distinguising the stations - the signage on the mainline platforms is "Underground" and "Hammersmith & City Line" at present. I don't think "(Suburban)" is a good name as that to me means the mainline surburban services to Greenford, Hayes, etc. Hammersmith it hardly suburban London.

Mar 7, 2009 3:37:52 GMT Ben said:

Some station names just arent descriptive of the places they serve. Perhaps a little pamphlet should be made with each station listing the top 3 traffic destinations from it, with walking distance and rough direction.

Eg; West Ruislip 1) Ickenham Park 50m West
2) Ruislip Golf Club 150m East
3) Ickenham Village 600m West

That sounds like a good idea to me. You'd struggle with some stations though that really only serve residential areas. At Debden there is Epping Forest College and not much else for example. Similarly what are the top three destinations from Bank?

[Chris M]

Another thought I've just had is about Paddington Bishop's Road.
A lot more people will be using this station if they see it is the only direct service from Paddington to Kings Cross (they wont know, or in many cases care, the interchange at Edgware Road is cross-platform). The platform and access bridge and stairs get very crowded at the moment and I'm not certain they could cope with more people.

There is also currently no ticket office here, everybody is directed to the perpetually busy one at Praed Street, and there is not a huge staff presence. I can't remember what the signage is like regarding the ticket office now the new barriers are in use, but it never used to be clear until you were at the old H&C only gateline - and trying to turn around is not always easy there.
Will these arrangements be reviewed?

[Deleted]

Paddington North
or
Paddington Green ;D

Plus they should put the new 200m (400m?) thingie between two Paddingtons.

[norbitonflyer]

Paddington East and Paddington West
or Paddington (London End) and Paddington (Country End)
or Paddington (where you want to be) and Paddington (where you're probably going to find yourself instead)

Agreed some station names are misleading - usually when the first tube line in the area has used the names of streets crossing its line of route, and a later line following that street has been added

For three-quarters of the Tottenham Court Road, the station of that name is not the closest one - I'm hoping that Crossrail will be the opportunity to change the station name to Centre Point.

Holborn station isn't even on Holborn itself - it's at the junction of High Holborn and Kingsway: as I've had to expain patiently to many visitors to my old office in Holborn, the nearest station was actually Chancery Lane.

[Ben]

Which is why they should have kept the suffix (Kingsway).

[21146]

As I have already commented on here, it will be interesting what destination blind rules will be applied to C Stock. Yes at present trains leave both Barking and Hammersmith in the morning showing "Circle Line" and regular passengers know the train will carry on eastbound at Edgware Road, or turn right at Aldgate East; but I doubt strangers do so this itself is less than ideal.

In the future at some point Outer Rail trains will have to have the blind changed from "Circle Line" to "Edgware Road", and Inner Rail trains from "Circle Line" to "Hammersmith via Shepherds Bush (sic)". Ditto the automatic DVA will have to change message to reflect the position/routing of the train.

And how will the platform DMIs cope with this? We're often told on here that the District Line TD apparatus is so archaic that extra destinations cannot be accommodated so can "Edgware Road" be added in or will it replace "Circle Line" between, say. Tower Hill and Gloucester Road?

Ditto the platform line diagrams, will all these be replaced or amended across parts of the District and Hammersmith & City Lines? At lot were changed to reflect the launch of the separate pink H&C identity in 1990, but there are still signs going back to the 1950s/60s dotted around if you know where to look. I wonder if this change will finish these off, together with the few remaining "black glass" describers?

[Deleted]

Outer Rail trains can leave Circle Line all the way from Hammersmith to Edgware Road and one lap on as the new in car diagrams will show the line running around the Circle and terminating at Edgware Road. They can be described on the describers as Circle Line from Edgware Road up to Gloucester Road, then from High Street Edgware Road as Edgware Road

Inner rail trains can be shown as Circle Line From the start at Edgware Road to Aldgate then changed to Hammersmith.

No change is required on the platform describers on the District or Met side. The trains DVA will need a new route added, but routes havew been added and removed on C stock before so this is no problem.

[citysig]

Mar 7, 2009 0:16:14 GMT @whistlekiller said:

Circlesmith anybody?

Mar 7, 2009 3:37:52 GMT Ben said:

In the space of one post, Circlesmith has caught on as the new name

I sort of like it in a strange kind of way (may it's the wine?) It sounds sort friendly but at the same time historical and also worthy as a line name.

Maybe we should adopt this on the forum at least. You won't believe (or maybe you know) how many people visit here, and what some of those people's statuses are in relation to LU. If we adopt it in our general speak of the project, it may just catch on, and who knows, a certain someone who I know frequents here may be influenced.... ;D

[Oracle]

I have of course mentioned before that UndergrounD News was widely read by 'high-ups' when I was Editor mof UndergrounD, late 1970s/early 1980s, and it must have been the same before and afterwards. As an extension of that into mthe modern era, it must be taken as read that this Forum is also perused. It would be amazing if it was not! <bows to the bosses>.

It is a fact that other Forums do get 'attention' as well. One forum basically caused its own demise for the unjustified vitriole that was allowed to be posted without censure.

[upfast]

Mar 7, 2009 16:31:09 GMT @21146 said:

And how will the platform DMIs cope with this? We're often told on here that the District Line TD apparatus is so archaic that extra destinations cannot be accommodated so can "Edgware Road" be added in or will it replace "Circle Line" between, say. Tower Hill and Gloucester Road?

Well the only TD available to route trains from South Kensington to High Streer Kensington is a Circle [C]. I reckon that they will simply change the DMI so that a [C] code TD will say Circle to Edgware Road (or whatever they choose).

I understand that some technical questions were being asked as to whether a [C] TD could be changed to an Edgware Road [ER] one at High Street Kensington. It was established (AIUI) that it could only be done with S5 PM in Progamme mode (which isn't very reliable!). Of course it would be easier to keep it as a [C] TD, so that the Edgware Road Service Operator can more easily identify the trains!

Having said that, not many people take notice of Earl's Court service operator's techincal knowledge. Only the other day a District controller wanted to book a delay item to a service operator for delaying a train out of Ealing Common depot west end. The reason that it couldn't come out was due to a train in the eastbound platform, queued up behind a train that had a SPaD! The SO tried to tell the SC, but they didn't believe them and phoned the MRSSL SOM!

[21146]

I really wonder how much preparation re. blinds, TDs, line diagrams, is going to occur before launch day, or is it all held in abeyance before the timetable collapses?

LU supposedly say connections will be made at Edgware Road, but that's a nonsense! A terminating Outer Rail train can arrive before, or after, an EB H&C or Circle Line (from Hammersmith) train, but certainly not at the same time.

District Line trains terminated in platform 2 to allow cross-platform interchange when I was driving, are these to be banished to platform 3 (i.e. walk over footbridge for onward travel) under this scheme?

[Chris M]

As has been pointed out on at least one email group, if eastbound passengers are guaranteed a cross-platform interchange this means that westbound passengers are guaranteed a free trip across the footbridge (or vice versa)

[DrOne]

As has been pointed out already, I think it is worth trying something different in order to improve reliability of the Circle. The only other thing I would have done would be to wait for full delivery of S-stock and new signalling in order to fully assess the viability of the new timetable, without those limiting factors. Waiting for Crossrail would have also mitigated some of the difficulties for city-bound passengers attempting to use the Circle platform.

The point was made that the new service will be difficult for tourists etc but it's worth remembering that tourists are new to the whole system anyway. With better signage I think it actually has potential to be easier to understand because it separates the Paddington platforms according to destinations i.e. Euston Rd & City/Hammersmith (Bishops Rd) and inner west London, Westminster & Wimbledon (Praed St). That distinction isn't so clear for newcomers to the Paddington platforms at present.

[Deleted]

I wish they would just switch to clockwise and anticlockwise now to describe the destinations.

[21146]

Mar 8, 2009 11:02:32 GMT @sweek said:

I wish they would just switch to clockwise and anticlockwise now to describe the destinations.

Or treat people like intelligent adults and use "inner" and "outer" rail.

[norbitonflyer]

Mar 8, 2009 12:55:20 GMT @21146 said:

Mar 8, 2009 11:02:32 GMT @sweek said:

I wish they would just switch to clockwise and anticlockwise now to describe the destinations.

Or treat people like intelligent adults and use "inner" and "outer" rail.

Not so helpful unless you know that the Underground (usually) drives on the left.

[Chris M]

Unless you treat the circle line (on maps, on DVAs, etc) as the "Outer Circle" (clockwise only) and "Inner Circle" (anti-clockwise only)

[21146]

As I understand it, provision will be made to revert back to the previous WTT if there are major problems (as per Covered Way Work), so can one assume that there will not be changes to TDs and permanent signage to start with? (Except maybe car line diagrams and Underground poster/folder maps.) I suspect that, whatever the outcome, if senior managers decide to call the revised operation a "success", than that is what it will be, regardless of the real situation. To be fair, at least someone's realised that the SSL service pattern is not set in stone and we can at last diverge from the rules written in 1941. The S Stock might have allowed further travel options in the future but sadly this seems not to be.

[21146]

Mar 7, 2009 22:06:52 GMT Oracle said:

I have of course mentioned before that UndergrounD News was widely read by 'high-ups' when I was Editor mof UndergrounD, late 1970s/early 1980s, and it must have been the same before and afterwards. As an extension of that into mthe modern era, it must be taken as read that this Forum is also perused. It would be amazing if it was not! <bows to the bosses>.

It is a fact that other Forums do get 'attention' as well. One forum basically caused its own demise for the unjustified vitriole that was allowed to be posted without censure.

Did it involve bendy-buses by any chance?

[21146]

Mar 8, 2009 14:48:24 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Mar 8, 2009 12:55:20 GMT @21146 said:

Or treat people like intelligent adults and use "inner" and "outer" rail.

Not so helpful unless you know that the Underground (usually) drives on the left.

The Glaswegians manage it.

[mrfs42]

Mar 8, 2009 17:29:02 GMT @21146 said:

Mar 8, 2009 14:48:24 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Not so helpful unless you know that the Underground (usually) drives on the left.

The Glaswegians manage it.

Speaking as a former commuter on the Clockwork Orange it is such a simple and logical labelling.

Whatever happens with this new 'Circlesmith' service, I'd like to see 'Inner' and 'Outer' rail retained.

Why 1941 , 21146? Are you thinking of the end of the peak service all-stations via the Bakerloo on the Met, extension of the H&C to Barking in the peak or the withdrawal of the Uxbridge - Barking through service??