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Post by metrailway on Oct 30, 2012 10:53:36 GMT
The Widened Lines were built and operated by the Metropolitan although I understand that Met services were very rare. My question is when did the ownership/operation of the Widened Lines change to BR (or its successors)?
Judging by pictures on the Internet, LT signalling was in use till at least the 70s so presumably it was around the time of the closure of Kings Cross (York Road)?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2012 14:48:17 GMT
AIUI the Widened lines were transferred to BR (and severed from LT metals) as part of the Midland Suburban (BedPan) electrification scheme, 1978-79
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2012 19:58:06 GMT
I have the following from my notes:
07.01.78 Track maintenance of City Widened Lines passed from London Transport to British Rail London Midland Region. LT/CWL controlled connection at Farringdon abolished.
14.05.79 City Widened Lines officially closed to London Transport and all signalling de-commissioned.
06.12.81 Midland City Line (ex-City Widened Lines) available for test running by BR LMR.
01.03.82 Overhead line current live on BR Midland City (ex-City Widened) Line at 25kV a.c.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 5:25:52 GMT
Strictly in terms of ownership, the Widened Lines may not be owned but rather leased. Certainly the lines around Smithfield are owned by City of London and on a long-term lease to the railway. We explore this in two pieces over at London Reconnections. This may not be simply legal nit-picking, as it has significant repercussions on how the railway is run. For example, there is a low-level stoush over the ex-Thameslink tunnels to Moorgate. Apparently City of London is arguing that these should now be returned to the City as they are no longer in "operational use". LUL is planning to use the tunnels for a long siding, but if this is not deemed "operational" then things become rather interesting. And the long-running battle over the Smithfield General Market resulted in an inquiry, which made it clear that the freeholders (the City) had an obligation to maintain the property including the rail tunnels beneath and that their neglect was not a justification for demolition and redevelopment. From 2018, the tunnels that were in such a poor state of repair are to be used by the intensive new Thameslink service, so the relationship between freeholder and leaseholder is important.  |
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Post by metrailway on Oct 31, 2012 16:35:54 GMT
Thanks for all the responses. Interesting, I didn't know that the City have the freehold of the land. I wonder what the arrangement is between LUL/NR and the City. Maybe it is one of those 999 year leases...
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Post by fleetline on Oct 31, 2012 17:55:16 GMT
The city widen lines are all on lease to NR. Its LUL/TfL property. That's why in the first stage of the TLP project you had LUL logos and why Farringdon has roundels rather than main line signage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 20:07:05 GMT
The London Reconnections articles above include links to some detailed reports on Smithfield that state ownership by City of London. When was this sold to TfL?
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Post by phillw48 on Oct 31, 2012 22:53:04 GMT
The London Reconnections articles above include links to some detailed reports on Smithfield that state ownership by City of London. When was this sold to TfL? The old Smithfield market was/is City of London property as is the tunnels beneath it. However these are not running tunnels but where the meat wagons were unloaded. The actual running tunnels belong to TfL. |
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Post by metrailway on Nov 2, 2012 15:27:54 GMT
So the running tunnels (including the ones on the City Widened Lines) are LUL property? So NR are the 'tenants'? Do they pay a fee to LUL to lease the lines?
On a similar note, do LUL still own the ex-Great Central Railway lines between Harrow on the Hill and Canfield Place? If so, would NR still pay £20,000 per annum to lease the lines as agreed in 1906?
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