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Post by Chris W on May 17, 2006 16:24:37 GMT
Before I left Manchester to return home this afternoon I popped into the Ian Allen shop which is adjacent to the station. In the May edition of 'Underground News' it is reported that the sole surviving 1940 W&C/Southern Railways car has returned to London, having been acquired by the LU Museum - it arrived at Acton on 6th April (predictably on the back of a low loader). Wonder where they're going to stick it (so to speak ;D) as I'm sure the Museum is already close to bursting point  I only managed to travel on these units a couple of times when they were in service.... I'll try to dig out some photos which are back at my parents next time I visit them  |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2006 16:27:00 GMT
If I remember rightly, this carriage was stored under a tarpaulin in one of the sidings at the railway museum in York for quite some time. With being outside for so long, I hope it can still be restored.
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Post by Chris W on May 17, 2006 17:01:23 GMT
Jubblyman et al
Yes it refers to the tarpaulin in the article.... its been up at York since lifting from the drain in June 1993. From the photo it certainly looks rusty with very faded NSE livery.
That's the thing that gets me. So many locos/units are saved from the scrap-man's touch, only to rust away for years on end.... if anyones got the most recent copy of RAIL, just have a look at 45015 for an example...
Its a shame, but I can't see it being restored to working order.....
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 17, 2006 18:17:06 GMT
I only managed to travel on these units a couple of times when they were in service.... They were really weird to travel in compared with say contemporary 38TS. However, they were tested on the main line to places such as Lansing which seems quite amazing now. To my knowledge the 38TS prepared for the Island [Isle of Wight] ran only from Eastleigh to Fratton depot for loading. That said I saw a sad sight in 1979 when a Class 47 pulled a long train of 38TS through Reading presumably on their way to Cashmore's of Newport for scrapping and it made you wonder how a third-rail converted TS would have performed on BR. There was of course the Standard Stock Track Recording Train that was converted to third rail similar to Sarah Siddons that ran out of Wimbledon Park depot on BR. |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 17, 2006 18:18:43 GMT
I only managed to travel on these units a couple of times when they were in service.... They were really weird to travel in compared with say contemporary 38TS. I am not sure whether my hero Bulleid had any input? However, they were tested on the main line when new and after overhaul to various SR destinations which seems quite amazing now. To my knowledge the 38TS prepared for the Island [Isle of Wight] ran only from Eastleigh to Fratton depot for loading. That said I saw a sad sight in 1979 when a Class 47 pulled a long train of 38TS through Reading presumably on their way to Cashmore's of Newport for scrapping and it made you wonder how a third-rail converted TS would have performed on BR. There was of course the Standard Stock Track Recording Train that was converted to third rail similar to Sarah Siddons that ran out of Wimbledon Park depot on BR. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2006 20:32:16 GMT
I loved the old W & C stock. As soon as it started moving, it was bounce bounce all the way From my collection...  |
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Post by Ben on May 21, 2006 22:22:44 GMT
I definately hope it is restored to working order; where would it be allowed to run though if in preservation? It would deffinately be fantastic if it could be (temporarily) converted to run on 4 rail; Tube trains on BR's been done but never SR in a LUL tube. That photo screams atmosphere though; its really pleasing to look at  |
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Post by marty on May 23, 2006 16:32:43 GMT
That photo really is... I don´t know...
WOWWWWWWWWWW!
I was never on the W&C while it still used to be BR...
It is really amazing to look at, as Benedict says!
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Post by frankpick on May 23, 2006 18:08:55 GMT
Wasn't it pure Westinghouse too? And blue lights in the tunnel to indicate the speed restriction (not that there was a speedometer!)
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Post by agoodcuppa on May 23, 2006 18:17:03 GMT
I think I've got some shots of the Southern 1940 W&C stock if anyone wants to see. Let me know and I'll find and scan.
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Post by frankpick on May 23, 2006 18:50:29 GMT
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Post by frankpick on May 23, 2006 18:52:43 GMT
I think I've got some shots of the Southern 1940 W&C stock if anyone wants to see. Let me know and I'll find and scan. Would love to see them |
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Post by agoodcuppa on May 23, 2006 18:53:17 GMT
OK, I'll see what I can find. Give me a few days.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2006 19:42:00 GMT
What puzzles me is why they look so different from the LU stock of similar vintage.
Was it beneath the Southern Railway's dignity to have trains the same as London Transport?
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Post by agoodcuppa on May 23, 2006 19:50:12 GMT
Was it beneath the Southern Railway's dignity to have trains the same as London Transport? Probably. That and the fact the the W&C was quite possibly seen as a "nuisance" to running the proper railway. ;D |
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Post by whoosh on May 23, 2006 20:09:53 GMT
What puzzles me is why they look so different from the LU stock of similar vintage. Was it beneath the Southern Railway's dignity to have trains the same as London Transport? I think it was just the accepted thing back then to design your own stuff. Bear in mind that the 'Big Four' railway companies all had their own individual designs for their mainline stock - locomotives, coaches, wagons, even brakevans could be quite different between companies - and it's not that surprising that they came up with their own tube stock design. |
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Post by agoodcuppa on May 24, 2006 14:18:19 GMT
It needs to be remembered that each of the pre nationalisation railway companies was a completely seperate company in the same way that Tescos and Sainsburys are now. There was no reason for them to work with each other unless it either suited them or if they were told to by government. Some more photos at s60.photobucket.com/albums/h34/oldtrains/ |
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Post by marty on May 24, 2006 15:40:01 GMT
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Post by frankpick on May 25, 2006 10:35:27 GMT
Great pics Good Cuppa. Thanks.
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Post by agoodcuppa on May 25, 2006 11:38:55 GMT
You're welcome. |
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Post by mandgc on May 27, 2006 0:58:08 GMT
W&C Stock.
Perhaps the SR couldn't afford to buy LPTB stock 'off the shelf' - the Main Line Railways were apparently always questioning LPTB's "Excessively high standards" for cables, etc. for the 1935 Extensions. Can you imagine the LNER having all the paraphanalia associated with the Goods Yards on the Eastern and Barnet lines? The Big Four railways made their profit (if any) from Freight - the LPTB from Passengers.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 1, 2006 9:46:41 GMT
The 1940-built W&C stock were built by English Electric at Preston apparently, and used motors similar to that of the 4SUBs. Of course the LNER 'owned' certain 38TS which were plated accordingly just as the GWR owned a share in the H&C stock..their only electric trains! I assume that there was a book transfer of assets from LNER to LPTB in 1948 when the British Transport Commission was formed, with BR and LTE under the same umbrella.
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Post by CSLR on Jun 1, 2006 9:59:15 GMT
I assume that there was a book transfer of assets from LNER to LPTB in 1948 when the British Transport Commission was formed, with BR and LTE under the same umbrella. LNER assets were all certainly all transfered to BR, but if the 38ts that LNER 'owned' were not transferred to LT it would make an interesting scenario. If BR had asked for them back earlier, there would have been enough 38ts to operate the IoW line for the remainder of the century! |
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Post by mandgc on Jun 1, 2006 10:31:42 GMT
At Nationalisation, ALL assets were transferred direct to the British Transport Commission (including from LPTB,Other buses, Canals,Hotels,etc.) and they could direct anything they wanted to the care of their minions - the Railway, London transport and other 'Executives. This happened to the "Property of LNER Cars".
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Post by CSLR on Jun 1, 2006 11:39:55 GMT
At Nationalisation, ALL assets were transferred direct to the British Transport Commission (including from LPTB,Other buses, Canals,Hotels,etc.) and they could direct anything they wanted to the care of their minions - the Railway, London transport and other 'Executives. This happened to the "Property of LNER Cars". Ah yes, but it is fun to imagine what might have happened if someone forgot. As an example, I remember some years ago being shown a little metal plate on a sleeper just before the rail buffer at Mill Hill East. It showed the point at which LT and LNER maintenance respectively ended/began. I was told that it was planned that LNER track maintenance would take over from the Edgware end of the platform and that in order to operate MHE as a 'temporary' terminus a buffer had to be installed. For operational purposes, this buffer had been placed just beyond the platform. This meant that LNER or its successors were theoretically responsible for maintaining a few feet of track and a buffer. How this operated in practice, I do not know. To the best of my knowledge, the plate disappeared many years ago. |
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Post by mandgc on Jun 2, 2006 1:32:11 GMT
Presumably the Plate was installed in 1941 when the Northern service and signalling was extended to MHE. Though under Government wartime control the LPTB and LNER were still legally independent.
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Oracle
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RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
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Post by Oracle on Jun 2, 2006 8:51:13 GMT
I wish I knew my New Works Extensions history better! So far as I can recall the LNER purchased 38TS, which were then plated on the solebar, in connection with the NWE. I wonder if there is a published list showing which units were 'owned'?
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Post by mandgc on Jun 3, 2006 0:44:38 GMT
'Property of LNER' -
10238 - 10323 'A' DMs
11238 - 11323 'D' DMs
12117 - 12154 NDMs
012313 - 012388 Trailers.
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