1970s computers still in use?

Channelling COLIN: you may find this thread to be of use/interest:

Metal Mickey, Mummy Bear and Daddy Bear



Edit: I've also got a copy of the relevant year of the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers (1981/2) Proceedings with a longish article on the computerisation of the east end of the Picc.; if you're interested.

Well "Thanks Chaps" ,

Responses so far indicate that mummy & daddy bear are at least closely related to the machines I worked next to. But don't stop replying now, Forming a closer relationship with the machine ops would be really really useful for a chap I have been talking to on the Vintage computer forum, He's rebuilding a GEC4070 (?, will check model) that used to be a Prestel server, I thought his machine looked sufficiently like the one I knew, and your info confirms this.

As I said, any visits would be more than a little appreciated

and there's an offer of a bear sancutary should one be needed!

Interesting because I know RTU as the remote transmission unit.

I didn't have a lot to do with it in my time at Earls Ct Control Room and it is part of the system I knew as WARS (Waterloo Area Resignalling).
I'm not sure why the parts should be hard to come by, from what I could see they were manufactured by Transmitton of Ashby-de-la-Zouche which is the same firm that supplied the SCADA systems for the JLE and which I'm sure is still a main subcontractor.
The Transmitton factory is one of the nicest places I ever spent a day, had to go there for the SCADA Cromos Express appreciation and hands on programming for JLE T/T control system.


As for the Picc signalling computers they are HP1000 reputed to have been ex-missile firing computers for the US in the Vietnam War. They were installed at Cockfosters, Oakwood, Arnos Grove, Wood Green and Earls Court and operate on an X25 loop network otherwise known as the Picc Databus. Originally they were programmed on paper tapes but the paper tapes are long gone the HPs being front ended with PCs as an interface between the operator (the TO) and the HP1000. Each site had two computers to control the local interlocking with three at Earls Court to communicate with the remote sites (the third is an online spare) which all still exist AFAIK.

I can tell you that sometimes it was hard work loading up the timetables especially if one of the HPs spat the dummy and wouldn't play. It got worse when the watchdog circuit didn't like what it was seeing and the standby followed the main instead of taking control.

If the X25 from the control room fails the computers can be worked on local panels which are housed at Arnos Grove and of course there are still lever frames too unlike the Central line and JLE!

Heathrow also has/had a pair of HP1000s front ended with PCs but these were used as programme machines, the lever frame being controlled by high speed scanning. I spent many many hours at Heathrow loading timetables, it either went well and was done in a jiffy or it went badly and took hours! Not a problem when its all that has to be done but no fun when you are alone and rushing to put the rolls on the P/Ms for the start of traffic at Acton Town, Ealing Common, Ealing Broadway, Boston Manor, Northfields and South Harrow as well.

I've got contacts at Baker Street who deal with the computers - I can occasionally be found working on them at times when I'm over there to visit my former colleagues.

They were all the 1000 series. IIRC Stanmore was an A600, Wembley A900, Willesden A600, Finchley Rd A600 and Baker St A900. But, it has been a few years so I may not be 100%.

I did regular signal maintenance at all those sites except Baker Street but never had to touch those computers at all unlike the east end of the Picc where we reset the PCs locally. I do recall the Jub computers going off during engineering hours, I think because they were probably updated and/or reset centrally from Baker Street SCC.

Charing Cross was the first V style frame I encountered that didn't have a release lever and unusually had lever 1 as a point lever IIRC.

You are perhaps correct. Interestingly point maintenance was one of my regular duties at Charing X and from our point of view the overruns were called sidings as that was their use and the 'catch' points were known to us as 'throw offs'. I think overrun tunnels have been driven as multi purpose on many tube lines i.e. the lead to expansion should it be granted authority and for H&S following Moorgate and other incidents as well as use as sidings.
As for the points I see the difference between 'catch' and 'throw off' as the former being used to safely convey runaway vehicles out of harm's way and the latter deliberately placed to derail a vehicle when driven towards the main line against the signalling. Thus 'throw off', usually single switch, points are found at the outlets to sidings across LU. This is usually coupled with current limiting to prevent a train being accelerated against the outlet signal, the consequence of which is to blow a rather large fuse in the siding traction supply.

Yep that sounds about right, I used to confuse my colleagues when testing out after doing point maintenance by referring to the release as lever thirteen! Of course it's a 12 lever frame and I guess no-one wanted to spend money for another section for the sake of one lever.

Of course I understand that exactly the same has happened with the 12 lever frame at Heathrow T123 with the alterations to accommodate T5 because the spare levers were one short otherwise.

Looking at the peril for the start of passenger service, I wonder if all options were being covered:

1: traps, SB line
2: Charing X SB Home
3: disc, end of pfm 4
4: disc, end of pfm 3
5: SB facing crossover (and angles)
6: NB facing crossover
7: release
8: NB starter, pfm 4
9: NB starter, pfm 3
10: traps, NB line
11: disc from siding to pfm 4
12: disc from siding to pfm 3

There are a few options here; depending on where the junction was to be: an end-on junction off the sidings is indicated on the peril, in which case 1 would indeed most logically become the outer SB Home, 4 would either become redundant or used on the SB (or a bang road shunt off the NB); likewise 10,11,12 - with 9 moving to the other side of the crossovers, then whichever of them were necessary being used on the NB with 10 becoming the starter off pfm 3.

I guess that by the time 7 was taken out of use in the 90's the decision had been made that the junction was going to be at Green Park, the decommissioning of 7 as a release lever would have offered the possibility of the junction points being controlled from Charing Cross IMR - lever 1 controlling the points in the SB; 7 controlling the points in the NB.

I was in there yesterday funny enough. None of the program machines work in any mode other than manual or FCFS, there was some electrickery in a cupboard open but I had no idea what it was.

Did you see the shunting stuff in the Train Crew place?

so the high speed scanning gone then?

Any ideas what happened to the old HPs then?
Please don't tell me they're being turned into soft-drink cans as we speak , I wouldn't mind looking after one of them either!