Eurostar breakdown?

[andypurk]

Dec 20, 2009 13:55:45 GMT @maurits said:

Dec 20, 2009 13:31:31 GMT jswallow said:

Nobody's questioning the fact that the Channel Tunnel is AC overhead, but commented that one of the passengers/broadcaster has made the ASSUMPTION based on the "beware of live rails" notice that there's live rail down there.

If you didn't know what was there, saw a sign there was live rails and was then evacuated from a train, wouldn't you start to put two and two together and potentially come up with five?

Sure, but why would there be a sign saying "beware of live rails" when there are no live rails in or anywhere near the tunnel? I find it just as likely you could come across a sign saying "Beware of the Yeti" in the tunnel...

I don't believe anyone saw a sign warning of live rails, they just made it up. "Oh, it's a train in a tunnel, London has live rails in tunnels so there must a be live rail in this tunnel."

Evacuation usually takes place via the third service tunnel which is used on a daily basis for maintenance and is permanently occupied by emergency crews with fire engines. There are no rails in that tunnel and no live rails either.

The trains have signs warning of live rails, as they still run over a short section where there is third rail around, at the Kent tunnel approach, although the tracks used from HS1 are AC only. They also run over dual electrified lines when passing through Ashford International station.

[21146]

Maybe Eurostar management should take a leaf out of BA's book, take the cold weather to the High Court, and have such disruption at Christmas declared illegal?

[SE13]

Dec 20, 2009 13:38:35 GMT metrailway said:

Dec 20, 2009 13:22:19 GMT @21146 said:

The locos used seemed to be two yellow "camel-backed" departmental locos with central cabs. Are these owned by Eurotunnel or maybe the CTRL/HS1 infrastructure maintainer? Interesting that they're cleared to operate all the way through to St.Pancras it seems.

Yeah, they're MAK diesel locos, classified by Eurotunnel as Class 0001, and 5 were built in 1992. They're owned by Eurotunnel NOT Eurostar. They're usually used to move failed Le Shuttle engines, but since Eurostar have sold most of their rescue fleet, the Class 37s, these were utilised

I found some pictures of them:

www.rtranmer.fotopic.net/c1793764.html

Rather oddly, they're maintained in the Netherlands due to there similarity to NS 6400

Before SP was operational and while the building work was still happening there were a few parked there and I took some pictures.

I have a feeling they must be on my old (now dead) computer because I can't see them just now.

This goes back aprox 3 years and I'm guessing that they were used to bring the track in......

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 20, 2009 13:20:21 GMT jamesb said:

Reports of passengers hammering on a drivers door and hearing him in tears, doesn't sound very pleasant for the driver either.

How is that possible? There is over a carriage-length of equipment room between the driver and the passengers on a 373.

Interested to see the 0001 class locos at St Pancras. Presumably, as they are cleared to run on NR track, they have TOPS numbers allocated (as does any "private owner" vehicle, such as "Tornado". Anyone know what they are?

Come to that, how does TOPS cope when 1972 and D stock trains venture onto NR tracks?

[jamesb]

Dec 20, 2009 15:01:44 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Dec 20, 2009 13:20:21 GMT jamesb said:

Reports of passengers hammering on a drivers door and hearing him in tears, doesn't sound very pleasant for the driver either.

How is that possible? There is over a carriage-length of equipment room between the driver and the passengers on a 373.

Interested to see the 0001 class locos at St Pancras. Presumably, as they are cleared to run on NR track, they have TOPS numbers allocated (as does any "private owner" vehicle, such as "Tornado". Anyone know what they are?

Come to that, how does TOPS cope when 1972 and D stock trains venture onto NR tracks?

Not sure, it is mentioned in the video interview with the CE of Eurostar on news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8422978.stm . Maybe they meant a member of train staff rather then the driver.

[Oracle]

when 1972 and D stock trains venture onto NR tracks?

and C Stock! Don't they have nominal TOPs numbers, a la Tyne & Wear Metro cars?

[metrailway]

Dec 20, 2009 15:01:44 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Dec 20, 2009 13:20:21 GMT jamesb said:

Reports of passengers hammering on a drivers door and hearing him in tears, doesn't sound very pleasant for the driver either.

How is that possible? There is over a carriage-length of equipment room between the driver and the passengers on a 373.

Interested to see the 0001 class locos at St Pancras. Presumably, as they are cleared to run on NR track, they have TOPS numbers allocated (as does any "private owner" vehicle, such as "Tornado". Anyone know what they are?

Come to that, how does TOPS cope when 1972 and D stock trains venture onto NR tracks?

I think Class 0001 (and any other Eurotunnel owned loco) doesn't need a TOPS number since they don't run on lines managed by Network Rail. CTRL is owned and managed by LCR, and LCR contracts out maintenance to Network Rail.

I believe the only 'foreign' locos given TOPS are SNCF BB 22200, which were used in goods trains before the Class 92 were delivered, being classed as class 22; and the 4 SNCF BB 461000 which are based in the UK and numbered as Class 21.

I know that the 1972 and D78 stocks are classified as Class 499. They were classified this in 1994 by Railtrack. Have no idea what they were known during BR days

[Deleted]

The locos couldn't have started through the tunnel in a cold-soaked condition - they had just travelled from Paris and Brussels.

And why were only Eurostars involved? Why not the Shuttles, too, which would have been more likely to be starting cold?

[Chris M]

the Shuttles are built to a more generous loading gauge and as they are more likely to be starting cold maybe they have better insulation?

[mrfs42]

Of course, in the good old days, all underground trains were run by condensing engines.

[Chris M]

That's a thought - a French steam loco did successfully traverse the tunnel under it's own power- albeit setting off just about ever fire alarm it passed. Would modern technology be able to produce a powerful enough condensing loco with sufficiently large condensing tanks to work as a Eurostar thunderbird?

[mrfs42]

And the first steam engine through the tunnel was narrow gauge.........

[Phil]

wARNING:

Thread drift.......

[mrfs42]

Update from Eurostar.

Something to do with the snowshields in the rear power car being not man enough for the job. I guess that it is similar to what happens with rain and road dirt with a hatchback. In which case the vortices to suck the snow in must take a rather unusual path.

It is interesting to see that this has changed from 'risk of flashover on traction motors' which I have seen bandied around amidst all the press hyperbole about 'saving oxygen'.

St Pancras was full of exasperated people when angelislington and I walked through the undercroft on Saturday after another trip on HS 1 en route to another meet at the Penderels Oak.

[bassmike]

as the high-speed line to st pancras is of continental loading gauge, why could not t.g.v units or any other suitable types have not replaced the out of action eurostars? I seem to remember that even a class 319 went through the tunnel at one point!

[SE13]

A couple of things still puzzle me.

Firstly, it's not as though we haven't had snow and low temperatures since the tunnel opened, so why now? How come it hasn't happened before, and if it had, why were lessons not learnt?

Secondly, if tube and SSL trains can do the same in London, go from cold/snowy conditions to hot tunnels why the major problem in the tunnel there?

Now according to the DG of Eurotunnel test trains are running just fine right now with modifications in place. Don't get me wrong, he is probably right, but how have they managed to make all these modifications so quickly without finding the cause of the problem, or are they just glossing over something simple.....

[jamesb]

Dec 21, 2009 13:39:24 GMT SE13 said:

A couple of things still puzzle me.

Firstly, it's not as though we haven't had snow and low temperatures since the tunnel opened, so why now? How come it hasn't happened before, and if it had, why were lessons not learnt?

Secondly, if tube and SSL trains can do the same in London, go from cold/snowy conditions to hot tunnels why the major problem in the tunnel there?

Now according to the DG of Eurotunnel test trains are running just fine right now with modifications in place. Don't get me wrong, he is probably right, but how have they managed to make all these modifications so quickly without finding the cause of the problem, or are they just glossing over something simple.....

I wondered the same thing.

Apparently it has happened before, just not on this scale. The weather conditions in France are supposed to be the coldest for years.

I think that the length of the tunnel is a factor, and the speed and temperature the trains travel at before they enter the channel tunnel, compared to the tube and SSL trains. I also wonder if, given the age of the trains, snow protectors etc had become a bit warn away and hadn't been properly maintained. That might also explain why such a sudden fix appears to have been found.

[Deleted]

The 319s were a one-off for the opening of the tunnel. Any stock using the tunnel has to comply with various legal regulations to do with length, ability to split, power supply, fireproofing and so on. Even if these could be waived, you would need to conjure up sets and drivers at short notice in the busy pre-Xmas period.

And given that Eurostar trains are essentially TGV technology, the same problems may well have happened to TGV sets! IIRC at the time that Eurostar's design had been fixed, there were no tunnels on LGV lines and therefore designing for use in the Channel Tunnel was without any similar practical experience.

Eurostar has already suffered this issue several times in past years - see my post upthread - Roger Ford has been interviewed and raised this point.

[SE13]

I suppose the length of the tunnel could be a factor, but let's face it, conditions were worse in February this year and everything worked just fine. Or maybe weren't reported?

But it's also difficult to judge whether tunnel length is a factor because they haven't said where the trains "broke down".... Some tunnels on LU are quite long with outside at either or one end.

[andypurk]

Dec 21, 2009 14:45:50 GMT @a60k said:

And given that Eurostar trains are essentially TGV technology, the same problems may well have happened to TGV sets! IIRC at the time that Eurostar's design had been fixed, there were no tunnels on LGV lines and therefore designing for use in the Channel Tunnel was without any similar practical experience.

Eurostar has already suffered this issue several times in past years - see my post upthread - Roger Ford has been interviewed and raised this point.

Whilst the Eurostar is based on the TGV technology, the electrical traction systems are UK technology and differ from the rest of the TGV fleet.

[metrailway]

Dec 21, 2009 13:39:24 GMT SE13 said:

A couple of things still puzzle me.

Secondly, if tube and SSL trains can do the same in London, go from cold/snowy conditions to hot tunnels why the major problem in the tunnel there?

I'm not sure but Underground trains have all their equipment exposed underneath the car floor, so there is no chance of condensation staying around electrics.

[21146]

Interesting that none of the Eurostar senior managers interviewed at St.Pancras dared stand there wearing any form of ID badge which, to be fair, can't be said about LU directors in similar circumstances.

[21146]

Dec 21, 2009 16:18:01 GMT andypurk said:

Dec 21, 2009 14:45:50 GMT @a60k said:

And given that Eurostar trains are essentially TGV technology, the same problems may well have happened to TGV sets! IIRC at the time that Eurostar's design had been fixed, there were no tunnels on LGV lines and therefore designing for use in the Channel Tunnel was without any similar practical experience.

Eurostar has already suffered this issue several times in past years - see my post upthread - Roger Ford has been interviewed and raised this point.

Whilst the Eurostar is based on the TGV technology, the electrical traction systems are UK technology and differ from the rest of the TGV fleet.

Even if TGVs can run in the UK without modification, it would take 8 months or more to gain "safety case" acceptance and all the other red tape.

[roythebus]

To avoid repititon, there's a good thread here: www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/5840-five-eurostar-trains-break-down-due-to-the-cold/

including comments from line controllers etc. Well worth a read if you have the time.

[Chris M]

Cheers for that link, an interesting and informative read.

[plasmid]

Eurostar are now running a limited service.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8425828.stm

Pretty poor design if the air intake is as simple as the BBC diagram.

Sort of like a car, how the petrol used to freeze in carburettors as it sucked in cold air from the grille at the front of the car. The way to combat this was with Throttle Bodies and have the petrol injected. Airbox designs are better too these days, rather than just a straight tube my car has a bendy tube with holes in the bottom allowing water to drip out before air reaches the filter.

Then again the trains are of a 15 years old design and technology has come a long way since.

[Deleted]

Chiming in late on this one - but couldn't help it.

I was watching a video a member sent me from 1990 or 1991, I think. It was of the Yorkshire Pullman service between Leeds and London being filmed by the BBC.

Quite the snow storm and cold wave hit. All of the InterCity 225 electric locos were taken out of service for days and replaced by diesels.

Anyway, the reason given (and shown on newspaper headlines) was "the wrong kind of snow" - real light dry, blowing snow that made it through the screening on the air intakes and wetted down all of the electric contacts.

This all sounded so familiar to this latest incident. And it doesn't seem like almost 20 years has brightened any brain-bulbs in fixing this issue.

[Deleted]

We did a day return to France on Saturday 9 Jan, which we booked some time ago. The Eurostar website was full of messages saying "Don't travel unless essential", but it seemed worth giving it a shot.

Real annoyance was that the cancellation of our last train home was not put on the website until after 6 pm the evening before. By this time we had decided to "just go" As this was the same game plan they had done the day before, and have done on the two days since, it seemed to be part of a prepared plan which they were presumably too embarrassed to admit. Not impressed.

Ebbsfleet station in the snow that morning absolutely deserted, we were about the only people there apart from all the staff (and two poor charity collectors from the local Lions branch!). Beeching would have closed it. Well done all for getting there, most of you must have felt what a waste of time though. Also running was the special bus from Dartford and Bluewater. As I have never seen a single passenger in this bus at Ebbsfleet station previously, it was no surprise that it was empty once again.

Trains both ways were making extended stops at both Ashford and Calais, as well as running at decidedly limited speeds, hence timekeeping went to pieces, ended up nearly an hour late both directions. I got the impression they were going in and shovelling out any snow from where it had been giving them a problem before entering the tunnel. Goodness knows why the long stop was needed after leaving it.

Trains, with about a 70% service running, were quite deserted on the way out (6 passengers in our coach) and maybe quarter full on the way home. Because of the cancellation we had to come home two hours early. Eurostar website had said "last trains will be very crowded". What a load of cobblers.

Lunch in France as marvellous as ever.