castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on May 14, 2017 20:46:51 GMT
@ Chris M
I do not intend to enter into lengthy dialogue with you as I think Drainrat's point is made and proven. And you have confirmed that degrees do not guarantee common sense. Drainrat's example was well made. I do not need to enter further discussion with you about it.
P.S. With common sense, but no "English Degree", there is a difference between "loose knowledge", which you have written, and "lose" which you might have intended.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 14, 2017 22:17:12 GMT
loose/lose typo corrected.
My point is that degrees and common sense are entirely independent of one another - one can have one, the other, both or neither. That somebody lacks a specific bit of knowledge you regard as common sense is unrelated to whether and how many degrees they have. What is and is not "common sense" is in many cases dependent on things like circumstance, prior experience, upbringing, cultural background, etc. It's common sense to us that walking across the M25 is a bad idea - but not to someone who has spent their whole life on Nauru.
There are good managers and bad managers. A good manager is someone who takes time to learn about their staff, what the issues they face are, what the crucial things are that are required to happen to enable them to do their jobs, and who listens to what they say is good and bad. This is entirely independent of what degrees they do or do not have, how old they are, how long they hae worked in the industry, what they did before becoming a manager, etc. None of these things can predict how good a manager will or will not be. Some things can give indications, e.g. someone with a degree should have experience of taking information from multiple sources, evaluating them and forming a conclusion based on all the evidence, which is one skill required of a manager, but having a degree is not the only way to demonstrate this.
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 15, 2017 5:59:35 GMT
Common sense doesn't exist
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 15, 2017 8:15:52 GMT
loose/lose typo corrected. My point is that degrees and common sense are entirely independent of one another - one can have one, the other, both or neither. That somebody lacks a specific bit of knowledge you regard as common sense is unrelated to whether and how many degrees they have. What is and is not "common sense" is in many cases dependent on things like circumstance, prior experience, upbringing, cultural background, etc. It's common sense to us that walking across the M25 is a bad idea - but not to someone who has spent their whole life on Nauru. There are good managers and bad managers. A good manager is someone who takes time to learn about their staff, what the issues they face are, what the crucial things are that are required to happen to enable them to do their jobs, and who listens to what they say is good and bad. This is entirely independent of what degrees they do or do not have, how old they are, how long they hae worked in the industry, what they did before becoming a manager, etc. None of these things can predict how good a manager will or will not be. Some things can give indications, e.g. someone with a degree should have experience of taking information from multiple sources, evaluating them and forming a conclusion based on all the evidence, which is one skill required of a manager, but having a degree is not the only way to demonstrate this. Very well put, Chris. Though you'll obviously never be made a manager - you actually have a clue how to go about the job. (O.K. That's based on a not entirely valid generalisation - there are many good managers about. The trouble is that no matter how many good managers you get below, in a large organisation there is always some idiot further up the hierarchy buggering things up.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 20:08:10 GMT
A Degree is TRAINING, Schooling is TEACHING loosely defined. Your Training (Degree) is directed towards a certain specific task in mind, such as Management Accountancy, or Civil Engineering as a destination, whilst Schooling is TEACHING, in order to bring general knowledge for use in later life after GCSE's.
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Post by 35b on May 16, 2017 13:02:12 GMT
A Degree is TRAINING, Schooling is TEACHING loosely defined. Your Training (Degree) is directed towards a certain specific task in mind, such as Management Accountancy, or Civil Engineering as a destination, whilst Schooling is TEACHING, in order to bring general knowledge for use in later life after GCSE's. Wrong. Some degrees are vocational (e.g. medicine), but most are not. I have a degree in history and politics; my wife in geology. Neither of us work in related fields.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 16, 2017 18:50:28 GMT
It could be argued that a degree is neither teaching or training; it's "reading". Could we get back to cab doors though, please?
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 17, 2017 9:20:13 GMT
I've asked around and apparently the driver involved was from Loughton depot, I know a few people from there but I've not had a chance to speak to any of them
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Post by drainrat on May 17, 2017 11:28:16 GMT
yes, Loughton, issued corrective action plan, but asked to be shown where it says he can't drive with door open or where it says on any training material, as you and I know, they can't provide this so he was dished a caution on the basis that he should've called the LC to let him/her know he was driving in CM........according to the rep from there
*even the though the call is only really a courtesy call and NOT to ask for permission
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Post by stapler on May 17, 2017 12:11:45 GMT
yes, Loughton, issued corrective action plan, but asked to be shown where it says he can't drive with door open or where it says on any training material, as you and I know, they can't provide this so he was dished a caution on the basis that he should've called the LC to let him/her know he was driving in CM........according to the rep from there
*even the though the call is only really a courtesy call and NOT to ask for permission Will the "corrective action plan" have been issued locally from Loughton depot, or more centrally?
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on May 17, 2017 15:18:05 GMT
yes, Loughton, issued corrective action plan, but asked to be shown where it says he can't drive with door open or where it says on any training material, as you and I know, they can't provide this so he was dished a caution on the basis that he should've called the LC to let him/her know he was driving in CM........according to the rep from there
*even the though the call is only really a courtesy call and NOT to ask for permission Will the "corrective action plan" have been issued locally from Loughton depot, or more centrally? It would have been issued by the Train Manager at Loughton. Incidentally, Most people who have seen the photograph are convinced it was a White City driver who looks nothing like the Loughton chap!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 19:08:32 GMT
Totally unnecessary waste of everyone's time - it looks like management are causing needless problems by raising the matter in the first place - If I was the Train Operations Manager, I would immediately shred all the relevant paperwork, issue a written apology to the driver involved, and get on with the things that really matter in running a Tube Service correctly.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 17, 2017 19:19:17 GMT
Totally unnecessary waste of everyone's time - it looks like management are causing needless problems by raising the matter in the first place - If I was the Train Operations Manager, I would immediately shred all the relevant paperwork, issue a written apology to the driver involved, and get on with the things that really matter in running a Tube Service correctly. Which would lead to yet more shouty headlines from the subStandard: LU take no action over dangerous tube driverLU refuse to confirm or deny that paperwork has been 'shredded'.Alas, LU have to do "something".
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 17, 2017 19:40:29 GMT
And that something should be explaining, in plain English, why driving with the cab door open is not dangerous.
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Post by stapler on May 17, 2017 20:52:05 GMT
It isn't that long since Loughton (well, Epping) drivers were operating F5s and J15s, that had no cab doors anyway....
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 19, 2017 9:35:49 GMT
Apparently the "Corrective Action Plan" was given by a DTSM who was then informed by the ASLEF Rep that he couldn't give a CAP for something that wasn't covered under the rulebook. The CAP then became a caution for not informing Wood Lane that the driver was going Coded Manual but at the next opportunity the Loughton Reps (and probably every other Rep on the Central) will ask the TOM whether or not we have to contact Wood Lane every time we go Coded. If we do then that will mean a lot more work for Wood Lane as ATO fails on a regular basis with a lot more delays to the service as we sit waiting for Wood Lane to answer the radio.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on May 26, 2017 13:22:03 GMT
Apparently the "Corrective Action Plan" was given by a DTSM who was then informed by the ASLEF Rep that he couldn't give a CAP for something that wasn't covered under the rulebook. The CAP then became a caution for not informing Wood Lane that the driver was going Coded Manual but at the next opportunity the Loughton Reps (and probably every other Rep on the Central) will ask the TOM whether or not we have to contact Wood Lane every time we go Coded. If we do then that will mean a lot more work for Wood Lane as ATO fails on a regular basis with a lot more delays to the service as we sit waiting for Wood Lane to answer the radio. Doesn't quite add up. An action plan is a document mutually agreed between the two parties. A warning could only come following a formal disciplinary interview, which would seem rather overkill. Was it a formal warning or just suitable advice?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 18:08:41 GMT
I saw two Piccadilly line drivers running with their offside cab door open today, when passing at speed through Turnham Green Station, and don't see what all the fuss is all about.
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Post by bassmike on May 28, 2017 11:54:13 GMT
Isn't it about time this thread was terminated ??
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on May 28, 2017 12:58:11 GMT
Isn't it about time this thread was terminated ?? It is up to the staff to decide when a thread has closure.
A reason a thread might be closed(locked) could include the following:
Breaking of rules Thread duplication i.e. Thread already discusses topic elsewhere Thread asks a question that has been answered No activity after some time
These are a select number of reasons and the list is not exhaustive.
It certainly is not up to members to decide when a thread has met its end. If a member has an issue with a thread, they should PM a member of staff and their query will be dealt with.
As for this thread, it shall remain open
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Post by bassmike on May 29, 2017 9:54:12 GMT
I'm entitled to my opinion arn,'t I ??
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on May 29, 2017 10:50:12 GMT
I'm entitled to my opinion arn,'t I ?? You are indeed, and to repeat what Dom K says above, "if a member has an issue with a thread, they should PM a member of staff and their query will be dealt with". Please follow advice in green and red.
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Post by PiccNT on May 29, 2017 19:53:13 GMT
We are permitted on the Picc to have our offside cab door open during hot weather. For safety reasons, the near side door must not be open while the train is in motion. All cab door must remain closed if there is another authorised person in the cab.
There are the guidelines that we are issued with.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 29, 2017 22:58:19 GMT
All cab door must remain closed if there is another authorised person in the cab. The implication being that opening the cab door is permissible if there is an unauthorised person in the cab - presumably depositing them on the track is seen as a convenient way of removing them from where they are not supposed to be (please note this post is not intended to be taken seriously)
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 30, 2017 9:42:09 GMT
We are permitted on the Picc to have our offside cab door open during hot weather. For safety reasons, the near side door must not be open while the train is in motion. All cab door must remain closed if there is another authorised person in the cab. There are the guidelines that we are issued with. Is this in the Piccadilly Line Supplement? There's nothing in the Rule Book or the Central Line Supplement about cab doors.
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Post by PiccNT on May 30, 2017 9:51:31 GMT
We have a line information book that is written I believe by an I/Op. Basically covers moves and other general information but agree that there is nothing in the rule book or line supplement.
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Post by brigham on May 30, 2017 10:17:47 GMT
Would it be too much to ask for TfL simply to issue a press release correcting the misinformation in the London Evening Standard. Papers do make mistakes; they have a policy for correcting them.
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Post by spsmiler on May 30, 2017 20:21:18 GMT
I feel that the ES was muck racking. I have no problem with open cab doors, if the train driver decides it needs to be.
Simon
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Post by 35b on May 30, 2017 20:48:53 GMT
Would it be too much to ask for TfL simply to issue a press release correcting the misinformation in the London Evening Standard. Papers do make mistakes; they have a policy for correcting them. Probably better that they say nothing rather than open up the debate.
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North End
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Post by North End on May 30, 2017 23:44:37 GMT
Would it be too much to ask for TfL simply to issue a press release correcting the misinformation in the London Evening Standard. Papers do make mistakes; they have a policy for correcting them. Probably better that they say nothing rather than open up the debate. I don't see why it is any of the Standard's business. It's for LU to manage and they should have had the confidence to stand by their driver. Having the cab door open is good for concentration, particularly if the air conditioning is not working effectively. Perhaps the Standard would prefer loads of cancelled trains on hot days? Really cabs should have opening windows, but no such stock has been built for many years. Don't really see why not, especially on something like the S stock where the doors are not curved.
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