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Post by silverfoxcc on Aug 26, 2017 20:02:28 GMT
There was a question on the TV programme Only Connect (25/8/17) that involved the Tube map and the Central Line
It stated that the colour of the Central line was originally orange.
Any idea when this happened on the map?
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Post by trt on Aug 26, 2017 20:08:27 GMT
As far as I'm aware it's always been TfL red, the same as the buses.
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cso
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Post by cso on Aug 26, 2017 20:09:03 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Aug 26, 2017 20:16:23 GMT
The names of the colours intrigued me. Why does black have a name? Surely black is just black! |
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cso
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Post by cso on Aug 26, 2017 20:27:02 GMT
Black is black except when it's not black.
Should have seen the trouble we had trying to find paint for a theatrical stage. Think we ended up with liquorice!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2017 21:21:18 GMT
There was a question on the TV programme Only Connect (25/8/17) that involved the Tube map and the Central Line It stated that the colour of the Central line was originally orange. Any idea when this happened on the map? Yep, the Underground Map of 1919 has it in Orange & The Highgate & Hampstead Tube in Red & the Met in light green. ADDENDA It is still orange on the first Beck maps 1932/33 as well. I think it changed from blue to orange on UERL's extensions between 1910-1914. |
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Aug 26, 2017 22:46:29 GMT
When I became aware of travelling on the Central line I thought that it was orange. Possibly the line diagrams had faded. When I drew underground maps as a child and teenager I always used orange for the central line. It took me a while to really believe that it should be red.
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Post by trt on Aug 27, 2017 6:40:58 GMT
When I became aware of travelling on the Central line I thought that it was orange. Possibly the line diagrams had faded. When I drew underground maps as a child and teenager I always used orange for the central line. It took me a while to really believe that it should be red. I still see it as orange. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Aug 27, 2017 10:26:01 GMT
It may also be that there have been some shifts in shading (rather than basic colours) over time - for example, the Central now seems closer to "bus" red than "tube" red as it used to be, and the Piccadilly is definitely darker after the Victoria started appearing as a lightish blue. [Some of this may be due to shifts in colour printing technology/survival of printed media - or fading memory!; the best examples for cross-checking would be enamel signs which don't fade or discolour over many years].
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2017 10:57:12 GMT
It may also be that there have been some shifts in shading (rather than basic colours) over time - for example, the Central now seems closer to "bus" red than "tube" red as it used to be, and the Piccadilly is definitely darker after the Victoria started appearing as a lightish blue. [Some of this may be due to shifts in colour printing technology/survival of printed media - or fading memory!; the best examples for cross-checking would be enamel signs which don't fade or discolour over many years]. Right, here's a site or archive that might help: oldetubemappesI think you are right on the Piccadilly line-I noticed that a few times in the early '70's when going to see Man. Utd. at Arsenal, especially after Seven Sisters opened and became the nearest Tube to Tottenham. But I think, with the addition of the W & C to the Tube Map, it's now gone a bit lighter again. Back on the subject line, the Central to me has indeed 'lightened up'-it's almost pillbox red now & not the deep tone of yesteryear. Personally, it's what I'd call a flashy, parvenu tone, rather than the reassuring timbre of permanence that should emanate from(apologies to mods & especially admin in advance for the following one-off hex colour #E32017And most of my paintings that have sold have featured deeper reds, btw. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 27, 2017 13:07:06 GMT
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Post by suncloud on Aug 27, 2017 13:11:36 GMT
Black is black except when it's not black. Should have seen the trouble we had trying to find paint for a theatrical stage. Think we ended up with liquorice! We use flint's theatrical black at work... I think there's a better black, but I can't remember it... But try and get a decent hard wearing black from a DIY store... |
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Post by Chris M on Aug 27, 2017 16:01:12 GMT
I've now looked at Issue 2, which dates from March 2007, and there are no differences between the RGB values in issue 3. There is a colour provided for the LU East London Line, which is a different orange to the London Overground orange. Also included for comparison is TfL's third orange, used for coaches and Victoria Coach Station. Corporate Red, London Buses red and London Underground red are all identical to the Central Line red above. Corporate blue is identical to Piccadilly line blue.  |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2017 17:47:26 GMT
I've done a bit more research.
Looking at JE Connor's Abandoned Stations on London Underground-A Photographic Record.
The UndergrounD Group map dated c 1913 confirms the blue of the Central from 1908.
The UndergrounD Group map from 1924 has the Central in orange, but such a light orange, it could almost pass for old gold. And it's the same on the map as in the key box, ditto the other lines, so that's clearly not down to fading. Compared to the LTPB map of 1933, also within, the Central isn't even a ripening orange-fascinating.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2017 21:18:10 GMT
Bit more research & another site which is not connected with the Tube, but...... Football shirtsClick on English Clubs at the top & then click on the tab for Wolverhampton Wanderers. Go down to the kits for them, fifth row down, and the three plain shirts dating through 1928-1935 respectively are the exact shade of old gold used for the Central on that 1924 map. Now go back to English clubs up at the top & click on Blackpool. Again, it's the fifth row you want, and this time the kit on the far right, dated 1938-1952. That is the exact shade of orange (officially registered to this day with the Football league as tangerine) seen on the 1933 LPTB map portraying the Central. |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 27, 2017 22:10:55 GMT
These colour standard charts were interesting. In many cases I prefer the older colours but maybe TfL is trying to make space for more colours - for future lines?
Simon
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Post by silverfoxcc on Aug 27, 2017 22:13:38 GMT
Wow
Thanks a lot for the detailed replies. It is amazing wjat appears to be a simple question throws up some cracking replies!
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Post by trt on Aug 28, 2017 3:33:02 GMT
Wow Thanks a lot for the detailed replies. It is amazing wjat appears to be a simple question throws up some cracking replies! Are you new here? It's almost always like this. |
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Post by silverfoxcc on Aug 28, 2017 16:31:23 GMT
trt
No just a long term lurker, but when i put up a question and get responses i always say thanks. Sort of old world politeness. I go back to tram travel from Balls Pond Road to Manor House!!! The introduction of the 'silver tubes on the picc and slam door stock on the Met as well as the lovely Q stock variants
The site and the posters never fail to deliver
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Post by superteacher on Aug 28, 2017 16:52:29 GMT
trt No just a long term lurker, but when i put up a question and get responses i always say thanks. Sort of old world politeness. I go back to tram travel from Balls Pond Road to Manor House!!! The introduction of the 'silver tubes on the picc and slam door stock on the Met as well as the lovely Q stock variants The site and the posters never fail to deliver Couldn't agree more with those sentiments. Good manners cost nothing. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 28, 2017 17:45:16 GMT
Wow Thanks a lot for the detailed replies. It is amazing wjat appears to be a simple question throws up some cracking replies! It's been a two-way process- for me at least-I'd never spotted that old gold variant I found until I was reminded that it'd started out blue. so you just keep asking, Sir! Afraid I can't recall too much re the last tram through Camberwell marmalating a penny placed on the line for me-I was only 4 months old, but I do recall going out through the East End from Greenwich for the annual holiday in Walton-on-the-Naze and getting a stiff neck from gazing at the trolleybus catenary overhead through the back window of Dad's Commer van. |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 28, 2017 18:59:02 GMT
Further thoughts to my previous message...
I wish that large corporate and governmental bodies that make changes considered whether they are *really* necessary, explained fully why they made the changes and also detailed how much updating all publicity (etc) material will cost.
For instance, the change of Metropolitan Line colour is so significant that it is effectively a different colour. This means that to present a unified image throughout the network every single map or sign that includes the Metropolitan Line should be replaced with one showing the new colour shade.
Paper maps are easy, as the colour can just change at the next reprinting, but what about the enamel maps at stations, etc? At a time of austerity does the cumulative cost of replacing all the enamel maps and signs represent money well spent? (Or is this why they are only changing online maps? - even though it effectively gives some lines several different colour designations!)
Changing the corporate image can sometimes also sound like corporate largesse.
There is a lot to be said for the saying "if it is not broken, don't fix it".
I bet that people in positions of power who take these decisions never also consider the costs to third parties. Or maybe they just don't see it as relevant (to them).
Because of TfL changing line colour shades there are many third party organisations which will now have out-of-date information. Maybe though tourist guides etc do not matter. After all, the tourists will soon have returned back home.
I also fall into the third party category, because I now need to change the line colours on my "railfanning London's Underground" web pages. The maps will require much work taking over an hour each map to change the colours so this will have to wait until I have the time.
But thankfully the clickable links and line names (these all have line colour backgrounds) use the Hex colour codes to define the background colours so changing them should take about a minute each. Updating the information requires nothing more than a global "search and replace" through all the pages then to upload to my webspace, replacing the older version of the webpage with the newer version.
Simon
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 28, 2017 19:26:37 GMT
Further thoughts to my previous message... I wish that large corporate and governmental bodies that make changes considered whether they are *really* necessary, explained fully why they made the changes and also detailed how much updating all publicity (etc) material will cost. For instance, the change of Metropolitan Line colour is so significant that it is effectively a different colour. This means that to present a unified image throughout the network every single map or sign that includes the Metropolitan Line should be replaced with one showing the new colour shade. Paper maps are easy, as the colour can just change at the next reprinting, but what about the enamel maps at stations, etc? At a time of austerity does the cumulative cost of replacing all the enamel maps and signs represent money well spent? Changing the corporate image can sometimes also sound like corporate largesse. There is a lot to be said for the saying "if it is not broken, don't fix it". I bet that people in positions of power who take these decisions never also consider the costs to third parties. Or maybe they just don't see it as relevant (to them). Because of TfL changing line colour shades there are many third party organisations which will now have out-of-date information. Maybe though tourist guides etc do not matter. After all, the tourists will soon have returned back home. I also fall into the third party category, because I now need to change the line colours on my "railfanning London's Underground" web pages. The maps will require much work taking over an hour each map to change the colours so this will have to wait until I have the time. But thankfully the clickable links and line names (these all have line colour backgrounds) use the Hex colour codes to define the background colours so changing them should take about a minute each. Updating the information requires nothing more than a global "search and replace" through all the pages then to upload to my webspace, replacing the older version of the webpage with the newer version. Simon The colour charts are for computer screen displays. Vitreous enamel signs are made with individual colours (frits) that are fired onto the sign. The last change of line colour was the Hammersmith and City line when it became pink. The Elizabeth line colour will present a challenge as it can't be made from the frits. Individual colours were used to print poster maps until the 1980s. Four colour printing is now used. |
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Post by Chris M on Aug 28, 2017 19:54:35 GMT
Indeed, the colour chart I created only represents the RGB colours used for electronic displays. There was no change between versions 3 and 4 of the standard to the pantone colour (which is the standard that the other methods approximate) or the CMYK colours used for four-colour printing to things like the tube maps. The difference is that CMYK is designed for reflected light and RGB for emitted light. The changes to the RGB will almost certainly have been to more closely approximate the printed colours on modern technology that can display more colours. this website shows a comparison between the version 3 RGB colours and the closest "web safe" colours - a set of 256 standard colours intended to give the best results in environments where that is the maximum number that can be displayed simultaneously. That was very common on home computers in the mid-late 1990s but is extremely rare these days when most devices can display 16,777,216 colours simultaneously (more than the human eye can distinguish). |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 28, 2017 20:06:29 GMT
Indeed, the colour chart I created only represents the RGB colours used for electronic displays. There was no change between versions 3 and 4 of the standard to the pantone colour (which is the standard that the other methods approximate) or the CMYK colours used for four-colour printing to things like the tube maps. The difference is that CMYK is designed for reflected light and RGB for emitted light. The changes to the RGB will almost certainly have been to more closely approximate the printed colours on modern technology that can display more colours. this website shows a comparison between the version 3 RGB colours and the closest "web safe" colours - a set of 256 standard colours intended to give the best results in environments where that is the maximum number that can be displayed simultaneously. That was very common on home computers in the mid-late 1990s but is extremely rare these days when most devices can display 16,777,216 colours simultaneously (more than the human eye can distinguish). Phew-I bet even Harry Beck would have liked that ability at his fingertips in 1933! Could have probably distinguished every non-interchange station on a given line with a subtle shift of tone. Bit like the varied tiling pattern on most of the Leslie Green station platforms. I think I've got about 140 different colours in my paints for comparison, partly because the gouache & crafter's acrylics are both manufactured differently, so, for example, a viridian in each of those formats will be as different from a 'standard' acrylic tube of the same colour as a Winsor & Newton's viridian will be from one made by Daler-Rowney. |
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Post by silverfoxcc on Aug 28, 2017 23:41:37 GMT
Slighty o/t
I am not great at telling colours apart on some maps.
I did a humungus trip across the states in July from West to East Coast taking in a lot of museums, mostly Train but a few aeroplane ones.
So one of the 'bucket list' to do's was the whole of the Chicago loop both tracks etc.
The sat nav was playing up and being one hour behind on the schedule due to a rather interesting behind the scenes tour at Illinois Railway Museum I was heading to Chicago 'blind' but i was going to head for Kedzie near Midway as there was a parking lot there and i had all the got on here get of there in my pocket. So eventually the phone decides to play and i shows me the route, check the CTA map and away we go.
It was when i got to the station i couldnt find the car park, but hey ho parked on street right next to the station and in the teain with the video running to get the loop in all its glory. As we passed through Mechandising Mart i thought this is all wrong i shouldnt be here this early. Then i check the route again and find out that there are TWO stations on the system called Kedzie and the one i got directed to as i misread the route colour as BROWN on the PC was 30 miles to the north of where i wanted to be!!
Once i get the videos and pics in order i will be available for speaking engagements,as that wasnt the worst thing that happened!!!!!!
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Post by grahamhewett on Aug 29, 2017 9:59:31 GMT
@chris M - when did LT introduce their RGB value definitions? ( Standardised RGB and RAL definitions are fairly recent things?)
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Post by Chris M on Aug 29, 2017 11:03:14 GMT
@chris M - when did LT introduce their RGB value definitions? ( Standardised RGB and RAL definitions are fairly recent things?) I don't know, but they were present in issue 2 of the colour standard from March 2007, which is the earliest I've seen. I would be very surprised though if they weren't present in issue 1, which will date from 2000 at the earliest, and not unlikely also in LRT's standards before that as they were one of the early internet users and have always had a strong brand. I've not been able to find issue 1 or anything from LRT online with a few minutes searching, but it's the sort of thing that the museum may have in their archive? LRT = London Regional Transport, TfL's predecessor body from 1984-2000 |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 29, 2017 14:10:46 GMT
@chris M - when did LT introduce their RGB value definitions? ( Standardised RGB and RAL definitions are fairly recent things?) I don't know, but they were present in issue 2 of the colour standard from March 2007, which is the earliest I've seen. I would be very surprised though if they weren't present in issue 1, which will date from 2000 at the earliest, and not unlikely also in LRT's standards before that as they were one of the early internet users and have always had a strong brand. I've not been able to find issue 1 or anything from LRT online with a few minutes searching, but it's the sort of thing that the museum may have in their archive? LRT = London Regional Transport, TfL's predecessor body from 1984-2000 This from wiki may help a little re RGB development: RGBAnd note Wordperfect 6.0 released in 1993, which we were using in my last Civil Service Post when I joined in Dec. 1994, had the capability to define colours by RGB value. Suspect LRT would have been at least as technologically-advanced as that. |
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Post by holborncentral on Oct 19, 2017 17:13:30 GMT
I've always seen it as red, never realised it was once orange. I must look at some old Underground maps when I have a spare moment and see what colours the lines used to be.
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