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Post by rs2ooo on Apr 26, 2024 13:47:34 GMT
Lifting of individual CEN TSRs has now commenced.
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Post by plasmid on Apr 26, 2024 16:03:30 GMT
Lifting of individual CEN TSRs has now commenced. Great news!
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Post by xtmw on Apr 26, 2024 16:15:00 GMT
Great news indeed. I'd like to thank the hard working engineers (if any are reading) as they were without a doubt working around the clock to remove the TSRs where possible. I'd also like to thank rs2ooo for keeping us in the loop with this whole situation ! Maybe management will invest in a new TRV as the current one, I believe, is on the verge of falling apart...
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 96
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Post by gefw on Apr 26, 2024 17:38:54 GMT
Great news indeed. I'd like to thank the hard working engineers (if any are reading) as they were without a doubt working around the clock to remove the TSRs where possible. I'd also like to thank rs2ooo for keeping us in the loop with this whole situation ! Maybe management will invest in a new TRV as the current one, I believe, is on the verge of falling apart... I hope their has been realisation all the way up the Management chain regarding the perilous position LUL are in with life expired kit & particularly with Obsolescence of electronic/computer based equipment.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 26, 2024 19:19:34 GMT
Plans for a replacement for the TRV have been in development for some time. How far has that got? At the same time, TfL have been warning that reliability is falling system wide with insufficient funding for capital renewals. There is no long-term funding provided for multi-year projects. Government provided only half of what was asked for this year, and that deal ends in March.
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Post by xtmw on Apr 26, 2024 20:37:15 GMT
I believe there is a substitute for the TRV. Kinda...
There's ATMS (Automatic Track Management system) fitted on the S7, S8, 1972 and 2009 stocks.
Very few trains are fitted with ATMS, only around 2 or 3 on each stock. It runs in passenger service when needed. There were plans to put ATMS onto the 1992 stock (inc W&C stock), but this was scrapped. This isn't a replacement for the TRV as it is capable of alot more
Looking at several TfL documents there hasn't been movement in this area since 2021 although it briefly touches on RTM (Remote Track Monitoring)
Something needs to happen with the TRV sooner or later as it ran into traction faults a few months ago and the onboard computer was failing. It appears to have been fixed but for how long? Has the TRV causing a headache finally caught the eye of management to warrant action?
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Post by jimbo on Apr 26, 2024 21:58:33 GMT
Tender evaluation of track geometry measuring equipment is underway with contract award scheduled for mid 2022. The project will mount the equipment on two sets of host wagons, to be hauled by battery locomotives across the network, replacing a single, life-expired track recording vehicle currently in operation, doubling recording capability. Slow progress in procuring this replacement capability meant modification was needed to the existing vehicle following commissioning of new signalling on the sub-surface lines. With this work now complete, a new project will explore allowing the vehicle to operate on the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines without need for special operating measures. A further project will overhaul the Central line fleet DC traction motors, due to delays in the CLIP full production phase when these motors will be replaced by more reliable AC equivalents. (Source TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 15 December 2021)
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Post by miff on Apr 26, 2024 21:58:45 GMT
With hindsight (that wonderful thing, never available at the time you actually need it) was it a good decision to abandon the AIT project?
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Post by zbang on Apr 26, 2024 23:02:15 GMT
it's possible I missed something along the way, however-
"life-expired track recording vehicle" Does that mean simply that it's old, that parts are failing and can't easily be replaced, or what? (There's plenty of old railway equipment out there operating happily.)
If it's a matter of age.... if the equipment can do the job, why is this an issue? Maybe it needs to be towed by a signals-compliant machine, but that doesn't seem like a large impediment.
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Post by xtmw on Apr 27, 2024 10:07:26 GMT
TSRs not removed as of today so let's hope they're lifted within the next few days to put an end to this mess !
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Post by rs2ooo on Apr 28, 2024 17:46:59 GMT
TSRs not removed as of today so let's hope they're lifted within the next few days to put an end to this mess ! I've seen paperwork submitted first thing Friday 26th for the immediate removal of TSRs between East Acton and White City at the very least.
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Post by rs2ooo on Apr 28, 2024 17:56:24 GMT
The timeline for a full and proper replacement of the TRV, references with confidence, the beginning of 2027.
But who knows what challenges may come about between now and then that may postpone that.
72TS with recording kit will be on the NL Tues night 30th, then another run late May, with a view to clearing outstanding TSRs that are in place due to lack of up to date geometry data.
Back to the CEN, a lot of people did indeed work around the clock to pull that off using TMM771, and it went far better than anyone ever expected, albeit not 100% perfectly due to some noise in the data.
The TRV istelf, I think carried out 3 TH runs to achieve the data required to cross reference with TMM771's data.
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 96
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Post by gefw on Apr 28, 2024 18:51:20 GMT
The timeline for a full and proper replacement of the TRV, references with confidence, the beginning of 2027. But who knows what challenges may come about between now and then that may postpone that. Lets hope recent experience has clarified the spares holding for the TRV rolling stock and perhaps more secured. Not sure who maintains & supports the recording equipment, but perhaps some form of partial upgrade/modernisation is justified to bridge the gap to the new TRV being ready. - This is the sort of work that could be done in house (or with framework contractors) and therefore commenced quickly.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 28, 2024 20:43:05 GMT
Was the 1972 stock touring the system the one fitted for regular service on the Bakerloo, or did it need extra equipment fitting for this task? The 1972 stock is the only type still passed for widespread trips about the network.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 28, 2024 20:44:24 GMT
Tender evaluation of track geometry measuring equipment is underway with contract award scheduled for mid 2022. The project will mount the equipment on two sets of host wagons, to be hauled by battery locomotives across the network, replacing a single, life-expired track recording vehicle currently in operation, doubling recording capability. Slow progress in procuring this replacement capability meant modification was needed to the existing vehicle following commissioning of new signalling on the sub-surface lines. With this work now complete, a new project will explore allowing the vehicle to operate on the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines without need for special operating measures. ..... (Source TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 15 December 2021) Has this contract been awarded? Two years on now!
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Post by xtmw on Apr 28, 2024 21:00:25 GMT
Back to the CEN, a lot of people did indeed work around the clock to pull that off using TMM771, and it went far better than anyone ever expected, albeit not 100% perfectly due to some noise in the data. The TRV istelf, I think carried out 3 TH runs to achieve the data required to cross reference with TMM771's data. Without the TRV I don't think anyone was expecting it to go well ! A massive well done for the engineers though and although some punters like to complain us on the forum will always be appreciative of the hard work and effort which goes into things like this. I think I speak for everyone here when I say that. Good to hear the TSRs are being removed and I have no doubt someone here will update us when they're fully removed
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towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,886
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Post by towerman on Apr 28, 2024 21:13:09 GMT
Hear!Hear!
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Post by rs2ooo on May 1, 2024 15:05:36 GMT
Lets hope recent experience has clarified the spares holding for the TRV rolling stock and perhaps more secured. Not sure who maintains & supports the recording equipment, but perhaps some form of partial upgrade/modernisation is justified to bridge the gap to the new TRV being ready. - This is the sort of work that could be done in house (or with framework contractors) and therefore commenced quickly. Spares is a real issue. Every musuem in the land has been raided, as has eBay The more recent issues I believe are recording equipment specific, as opposed to Craven Stock parts. I've kind of followed the repair process with one eye open, and the investigation work and testing has been well beyond my levels of understanding, and seemingly far more complicated than you might expect for what on paper looks like a moderately straight forward fault finding excercise. Has this contract been awarded? Two years on now! I would guess yes, because a supplying company name has been used in correspondance that has been shared across a fairly wide distribution list, but I'd want to check and be certain that I've not misunderstood before sharing names.
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Post by xtmw on May 1, 2024 15:38:07 GMT
I think the TRV was doing test runs on the District & Picc before working on other lines.
Why was the tamping unit used? Was it solely because no one knew how long the TRV would be out for? Or was it because certain elements can no longer be recorded with the TRV?
TSRs still remain in place!
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 96
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Post by gefw on May 2, 2024 10:00:24 GMT
Lets hope recent experience has clarified the spares holding for the TRV rolling stock and perhaps more secured. Not sure who maintains & supports the recording equipment, but perhaps some form of partial upgrade/modernisation is justified to bridge the gap to the new TRV being ready. - This is the sort of work that could be done in house (or with framework contractors) and therefore commenced quickly. Spares is a real issue. Every musuem in the land has been raided, as has eBay The more recent issues I believe are recording equipment specific, as opposed to Craven Stock parts. I've kind of followed the repair process with one eye open, and the investigation work and testing has been well beyond my levels of understanding, and seemingly far more complicated than you might expect for what on paper looks like a moderately straight forward fault finding excercise. The museum tours /calls must have been quite interesting - If the last issue was regarding the Cant measurements - I guess "old school" Gyros and measurement of angles relative to horizontal are involved (as used in military items of the same era?) Is Cant measured in the ATMS kit employed/favoured on a number of LUL lines?
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Post by zbang on May 2, 2024 15:58:05 GMT
I don't know the specifics of the TRV, but replacing bad sensors with newer design is pretty much a solved problem; might involve some signal conditioning (e.g. level shift or freq->voltage) or maybe a box that converts the new sensor's digital signal to the expected analogue of the logging system. It's simply a matter of will and money. I spend a lot of time at an aging steel mill working on this kind of stuff, and it's gotten a lot less expensive in the last 25 years.
In terms of a cant sensor, even high-quality semiconductor accelerometers are quite inexpensive and they easily interface to many (also inexpensive) industrial single board computers; those could be configured to output pretty much whatever is needed. Cost is probably under £1000 for the hardware and under a week for a competent engineer.
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