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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 12, 2022 14:42:37 GMT
Just had a look at Trackernet "Replayer"
Train 111 was due to terminate Loughton Platform 2/3 10:28, depart 10:36 but didn't arrive until 10:37
Train 013 was due to terminate Loughton Platform 2/3 10:38 but terminated on Platform 4 10:40 because Train 111 was still on Platform 2/3.
Train 013 and Train 111 were both held while Train 012 from Epping went west 10:43 from Platform 1 and Train 064 was brought out of Loughton sidings onto Platform 1 (don't know why it was in Loughton sidings, should have been at Gants Hill Outer)
Next Epping Train 016 was being held outside Loughton, should have departed 10:41. Train 013 departed Platform 4 10:47, Train 016 arrived Platform 4 10:48, departed 10:49
Previous Epping trains were Train 014, departed 10:30 and Train 015, departed 10:33
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 11, 2022 14:04:43 GMT
No reported problems, a "quiet morning" according to the manager on the desk at Leytonstone when I booked on just now. Could be trains cancelled due to not enough stock or drivers available
Which eastbound platform? You can go west from Plat 4 Loughton, Plat 3 Woodford and Plat 3 Leytonstone.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 10, 2022 13:58:09 GMT
Disruption at Stratford apparently on my way this morning due to a faulty train No trains between North Greenwich and Stratford I'm fairly certain my train going west towards Stanmore is being driven in "coded manual" (or equivalent for the Jubilee line), as at Canary Wharf the train stopped about a door set too short and had to start and stop again, Can anyone shed light if the issue is because of ATO? And also, how often are the trains driven manually now on the ATO lines, especially on the Jubilee line with what I presume are tight tolerances with the Leads Many thanks Protected Manual for the Jubilee Jubilee Stanmore - Wembley Central Epping - Leytonstone and Woodford - Newbury Park Victoria ATO even on Sunday Not sure about the Northern.... Of course, these are only on sundays On the Central Line Sunday manual driving is west of White City and east of Leytonstone including the tunnel section Leytonstone to Newbury Park Its also manual working into or out of sidings and depots Or any time it rains...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 10, 2022 10:48:56 GMT
The advantage of having one stock on several lines! The issue only affects the S8's on the Metropolitan line. S7's on the Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines are not affected. I misread the original comment, I thought they were sending S7s from the other lines to the Met while the S8s were being worked on Alzheimer's strikes again...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 9, 2022 16:37:48 GMT
We usually go through 21 Road if a Woodford reverser is doing the west-to-east mainline shunt, blocking the westbound road. And usually we only do the mainline shunt if a train needs to go into Woodford sidings from South Woodford.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 9, 2022 16:33:17 GMT
The advantage of having one stock on several lines!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 6, 2022 7:14:54 GMT
Apart from the trains mentioned in the previous post, Debden reversers were removed in WTT 70. WTT 70 increased the number of Loughton reversers with "step backs" and at Loughton you don't need a member of station staff to assist with detraining. The only time you'll see Debden reverses under WTT 70 is if there's late running.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 28, 2022 3:01:46 GMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 13, 2022 8:37:42 GMT
Removing car parking space discourages people driving to the station which has two benefits for TfL. It reduces congestion in the vicinity which improves bus journey times and encourages people to use the buses creating extra fares revenue. Add the additional revenue from rents and building on Tube station car parks is an all round winner for TfL.
As for those non-London people driving in from outside they don't vote in May 2024 and they don't pay Ealing/Enfield/whatever council tax so not really TfL's problem.
And with the price of fuel going through the roof it might soon become cheaper to take National Rail services from their nearest station than to drive into London
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 12, 2022 2:40:09 GMT
As Saddam Hussein said in South Park "Iran, Iraq, who cares?"
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 10, 2022 10:23:05 GMT
We are all now thoroughly familiar with the west to east mainline shunt move at Liverpool Street and thankfully they'd cleaned the "Limit of Shunt" board since last time we used it so no one ending up going all the way to Bank.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 10, 2022 8:26:13 GMT
The idea that driverless trains would "blunt the impact of union action" was proved false during the two RMT strikes last week when plenty of ASLEF drivers booked on for work but there weren't enough staff in the control room to run anything more than a reduced service and a large number of stations closed due to lack of staff.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 9, 2022 9:26:36 GMT
Except Kensington Olympia station is in Kensington & Chelsea, the boundary with Hammersmith & Fulham runs alongside the west side of track. Olympia Way is in Hammersmith & Fulham so you cross from one borough to the other when you enter or exit the station
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 9, 2022 3:14:05 GMT
So, the on board staff call a strike. "Mwaa ha ha ha", go the management. "Our trains are automated so we don't need you!" Train fails in long tunnel section. Trains back up behind. The driver of the train directly behind the failed train drives his train ... oh, wait ... You would need a staff member in at least every other train so the advantage that the politicians are gunning for: Making the tube strike proof, fails to materialise. And what happens if there is a fault in the signalling system causing multiple trains to get 'stuck'? It's very likely that, at some point, a fully automated system will be developed that does not require staff, but in the meantime, positing a system which uses staff who may or may not be present is weaselly. Either they don't need to be there, in which case you've already got a fully automated system, or they do, and you have lost your 'no-strikes' advantage. Agreed - but you miss the generalised point that if you can make the on board presence 'unskilled' it becomes far easier to find people to cover for strikers*.
Amongst certain sections of political thinking (and their press backers) the holy grail would be to have on train staff on the same zero hours contracts as train cleaners meaning even if they do strike its easy to recruit cover.
Now naturally on the tube this is going to be tricky - but if you were able to strip it back to a 'bare bones' situation of merely knowing how to evacuate a train via the 4ft rather than knowing how to drive the train etc, its quite possible TfL would be able to have a reserve of people it could call on and blunt the impact of union action.
Removing any requirement for 'drivers' (in any sense of the word) is thus an important step in achieving this goal - and is also why the DfT will NOT drop the idea, regardless of how many practical issues TfL (or members of this forum) raise.
*Leaving aside the hyperbole, that was really the essence of the Southern Guard dispute a few years ago where the reality was a desire by the DfT to 'de-skill' the 2nd member of on train staff, something that had it been successful would have nullified any union action and meant wages could have been slashed. The fact the the OBS grade still requires all the safety critical competences a Guard does means it has done nothing to reduce the power of the RMT to cause disruption via industrial action (particularly as the agreement which ended the dispute specified that in the event of a OBS no show then the train would be cancelled rather than run as DOO) and so the DfTs actions can (after putting staff and passengers through several years of hell) be largely said to have failed -
What you describe is Grade of Automation 4 which TfL has already rejected as unworkable. I have no idea if DfT has actually stipulated GoA4 or GoA3 but TfL is not going to accept a situation where trains have no one onboard capable of dealing with faults and driving the train if necessary as that would simply lead to massive disruption on a daily basis. Even if TfL had a "reserve of people" they would still have to be trained, hold safety critical licences, perform those duties at least once every six months in order to keep their licences in date and there would be nothing to stop them joining a union.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 8, 2022 7:42:54 GMT
There is currently a step-up method of working when a Train Driver becomes incapacitated. The following driver pulls forward behind a stalled train, secures their own train and boards the preceding train to deal with its problem. This procedure continues to occur for all following trains until a spare driver can arrive on site. Given that the new trains are designed with redundancy to avoid trains stalling between stations, and even in power failures can creep to the next station with battery power, it is unlikely that the absence of a staff member on board would usually be noticed by the public. The retention of staff on trains for such rare eventualities would provide little economy in staff costs. But if a staff member was provided only on alternate trains, staff costs could halve. If the staff member was aboard a stalled train then they would proceed to deal with it as today, but if the stalled train were unaccompanied then it would be dealt with using the current step-up method above. First and last trains would always be staffed. The flaw with that idea is trains rarely stall due to power failures, in nearly 20 years of driving I can only think of two or three occasions when I've been stuck on a train without traction current. The main causes of stalled trains are faults on the train itself or faults with the signal system, neither of which could be resolved with battery power. That is one of the reasons TfL have considered GoA3 with a member of staff on board rather than unstaffed GoA4 Also there are occasions when traction current is discharged to allow access to the track to carry out repairs, to retrieve something that has fallen on the track or with "one unders". You really don't want unstaffed trains driving themselves and "creeping" to the next station on battery power when you've got staff on the track!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 7, 2022 11:35:38 GMT
From the 2014 TfL feasibility study
Page 48 Page 50 And Page 51 Of all the lines the Bakerloo is the least likely to be converted to driverless operation as it would face the most difficulties
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 6, 2022 12:12:49 GMT
How exactly would driverless operation work on the Bakerloo while sharing the track north of Queens Park with London Overground trains running on conventional coloured light signals and without PEDs fitted to the platforms? Option one - (the cheapskate option which HM Treasury would push for) terminate the Bakerloo at Queens Park Option two - keep digging - in the Utopian "money no object" world Politicians are descending into, there is no reason not to tunnel all the way Harrow and Wealdstone or Watford Junction or perhaps even Glasgow Central. Entertaining though it may be, discussing the details of such madness, it adds nothing to the sum of human knowledge - perhaps this thread and all such like it deserves a transfer to the "Fantasy Ideas" section. Option one - that would mean cutting the service from 31 trains to 19 as there is only room for 19 at London Road (11), Elephant & Castle (1) and Queens Park (7). The other 12 stable at Stonebridge Park, deep in "Bandit country" (aka Network Rail). If memory serves Stonebridge Park is also where maintenance and repairs are carried out so terminating at Queens Park would create major problems Option two - money clearly is an object as TfL have had to cancel numerous projects due to lack of funding Unfortunately TfL are being asked to investigate driverless operation by politicians who think that not only would conversion be relatively simple but that it would actually save money and would reduce union influence. Ridiculously large sections of the public seem to share this view!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 6, 2022 4:09:42 GMT
I know its a world apart plus these installations were built to be driverless from the outset, but here in the UK we do have some decades of experience of unstaffed driverless trains that serve multiple stations at some of our airports. People with little idea of the complexity of the works required will ask why other urban trains cannot also be unstaffed. What I think is also very relevant is that whilst the DLR is a new-build automated railway and hence could have been unstaffed, it was decided to always have a human member of staff onboard. This speaks volumes about the operational and human politics 'benefits' of unstaffed trains. Perhaps TFL should apply to HM Treasury for the funds for a rolling programme of total line replacement to meet any driverless train edict, so perhaps they can start by building a completely new fully automated Bakerloo line, and when operational, close down the current one. Repeat with the other lines... In short, I think that if our Prime Minister is so devoted to London having unstaffed UndergrounD trains then TfL should do exactly this. I also agree with the Bakerloo line being first, as it needs new trains plus has a planned extension that could be built from the outset in a way that meets the requirements of unstaffed trains. It will be interesting to see what happens. I feel very confident that if directed by the PM then the Treasury will find the required funding. How exactly would driverless operation work on the Bakerloo while sharing the track north of Queens Park with London Overground trains running on conventional coloured light signals and without PEDs fitted to the platforms?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 5, 2022 21:13:47 GMT
Yes if TFL were to propose a completely new line - then just like recent metro lines in Paris, you can build the trains, tunnels, tracks and stations with fully automated operation as an integral design feature. But to stand any chance of passing HSE strictures this will probably be a lot more expensive than the last completely new deep tube line (aka Victoria) which was constructed to comply with far less challenging requirements. So yes I can see Full ATO being the norm on any totally new line, but retrofitting it to the current system would be insanely expensive and disruptive. Perhaps TFL should apply to HM Treasury for the funds for a rolling programme of total line replacement to meet any driverless train edict, so perhaps they can start by building a completely new fully automated Bakerloo line, and when operational, close down the current one. Repeat with the other lines... My guess it would be sometime mid 2330 before we could all be enjoying a fully driverless tube network. I feel certain I won't be around to see it. The only Paris Metro built driverless was Line 14, opened in 1998 (the year after I joined London Underground) TfL currently can't afford a signals upgrade for the Piccadilly Line which would support driverless operations and DfT asking for £400m budget cuts by 2023 Bakerloo Line cannot go driverless as north of Queen's Park the route is owned by Network Rail and shared with London Overground ATO (automatic train operation) is GoA2, used on Victoria, Central, Northern, Jubilee and most of the Sub Surface lines DTO (driverless train operation) is GoA3, used on the DLR UTO (unattended train operation) is GoA4, used on Paris Metro Lines 1 and 14 with 4 currently being converted
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 4, 2022 13:19:04 GMT
Reports get buried on a regular basis, we're still waiting for the full version of the report by KPMG into TfL's finances, it was completed in October 2020 but only a heavily redacted version was ever released by the DfT.
I wouldn't hold you breath on that other one...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 22:10:46 GMT
I was in Glasgow last weekend and I noticed the new Eurobalises in the four foot, which weren't there the last time I visited. The contractor is a consortium of Stadler and Ansaldo - I know Ansaldo haven't had an easy time of it with other Metro resignalling contracts they've been awarded, so I wonder if they're having a few problems here too? I read somewhere that the problem has been lack of space in the very restricted Victorian Glasgow tunnels to actually fit the new kit. It sounds rather like the disaster of Bombardier overestimating the capabilities of its CityFlo 650 system when they were given the job of upgrading the Sub Surface Lines. Maybe Glasgow did the same as TfL by taking the cheapest bid and now its running into problems
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 21:49:58 GMT
Trains had to be stabled by 7pm tonight because the power supply control room staff had to book off. Guessing they started at 7am, did a maximum 12 hour shift then needed the required 12 hour rest period between booking off and booking on again tomorrow morning. Most of the power supply people are Unite not RMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 17:10:59 GMT
Eddie Dempsey was Great Western Railway station staff at Paddington mainline, elected secretary of Paddington No.1 Branch in 2010, elected to the National Executive Committee in 2016 and elected Assistant General Secretary in October last year.
Fast worker...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 16:30:55 GMT
During the strike yesterday I had to use the epping branch several times to meet clients. All trains were coded between leytonstone and woodford because snaresbrook and South woodford were shut. Firstly, why where these stations shut, I thought they would be able to stay open without staff? Upon my final journey east from leytonstone the driver was relieved and the new driver departed in auto. Snaresbrook was skipped ok, but then the train pulled up in a heap before south woodford with the EB alarm going then continued coded. I thought that ATO could handle two shut stations in a row, or is it just the one? Trains were also skipping leyton and all seemed to be in coded. Surely this could have been skipped in auto? Or is it because the brake rate changes for stratford and therefore can't be skipped? Cheers an interested passenger Apparently management have taken the decision that unstaffed stations should be shut rather than left open which is rather odd as they are left open and unstaffed when there isn't a strike. Almost as if management want to make the strike as inconvenient for passengers as possible... ATO can only skip one station so we go Coded if two consecutive stations are closed. We've got a lot of new drivers, obviously the driver you mentioned either forgot or was unaware of this, realised that the train wasn't slowing down to go through the platform and activated the emergency brake. I went through Leyton both directions in ATO on Tuesday. The only station I know you can't skip in ATO is Mile End EB precisely because of the brake rate change so we have to go Coded from Bethnal Green. It might be the same with Shepherds Bush WB but I can't remember having station skip there in the last 19 years.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 16:19:02 GMT
Maybe the Mayor can sell it to somewhere that actually needs a cable car. After all the DfT did ask him to find new ways of generating revenue
Individual's name replaced with role - Tom
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 16:16:30 GMT
Indeed. I could see it hypothetically working, if you build Crossrail 2 (and 3) and use the capacity from that to close certain lines for extended periods for major refit to allow for it. Oh look, we're back to DfT writing blank cheques again. (Of course it won't stop strikes because there will still be control room staff and it won't save a huge amount in running costs as a result). Control Room staff, train maintainers, track workers, signal technicians, power supply technicians, station staff and DLR style on-board staff. Most of which will be RMT, all you do by removing the drivers is remove ASLEF from the equation The DLR PSAs are on about £10k less than Train Operators
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2022 13:37:44 GMT
With hindsight, it might have been better for the W & C to have been made driverless during the last refurbishment. How soon AFTER the decision to close and refurb it did the 'driverless' notion appear? W&C would need a signal upgrade to go driverless, the stuff we work on is left over from British Rail. You'd also need new rolling stock as I doubt very much the Class 482/1992 Tube Stock could be retrofitted for a new CBTC signalling system or to work with Platform Screen Doors. The Central Line signalling system and ATO is simply too unreliable to be used for driverless operation (90s technology) TfL investigated the idea of driverless operation on the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City Lines in the New Tube for London Feasibility Report October 2014 although it concluded it wouldn't happen on the Bakerloo due to sharing track north of Queens Park. The new trains for the Waterloo & City Line would have been delivered in 2032 but now nobody knows
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 2, 2022 11:59:01 GMT
TfL have postponed a whole load of planned works due to lack of funds
Piccadilly signals upgrade Bakerloo new trains, signals upgrade and extension Camden Town, Elephant & Castle and Holborn rebuilds DLR extension to Thamesmead
Plus the Rotherhithe tunnel is in need of some serious work and could close at some point
TfL have been told to look at driverless operation on the Piccadilly and Waterloo & City, Piccadilly would be a nightmare but Waterloo & City would be comparatively simple; shut down for however long it takes, new trains, signals upgrade and install PEDs on the platforms.
Sadly that wouldn't happen before I retired so I'll have to carry on working down the Drain at least once every six months to keep my licence up to date!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 1, 2022 22:12:00 GMT
Forgive me if this is an obvious question, when I looked at the status board earlier (I will use the Piccadilly Line for reference) there was no service on the entire line then an hour later there is an Acton-Hounslow service and various other lines are also changing from suspended to a reduced service. what affects a decision to have the whole line suspended then a small shuttle during strike action (I don't work on the railway, its more just for context) Several factors As far as stations are concerned its whether the stations are subject to the Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) (England) Regulations 2009, otherwise known as "Section 12s". These regs replaced the Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 1989 that implemented the recommendations of the Fennel Report into the King's Cross Fire, one of which was a minimum staffing level that varies depending on the size, complexity and number of passengers at a given time. A relatively simple Section 12 station like Temple or Bow Road has a minimum of 2 staff, one of which must hold a Customer Service Manager licence while Kings Cross can vary between 15 and 19 depending on time of day/week. As far as trains are concerned it could be down to how many depot staff have been available to certify that trains are available for service, how many train operators are available to drive the trains or how many control room staff are available to oversee operations on the line Tonight on the Central Line we had to close down at 7pm because while we had plenty of drivers available Wood Lane control room did not have enough staff to run the service
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 1, 2022 8:54:50 GMT
I can't think of one single heavy metro line anywhere in the world that is driverless that is NOT : [1] a new construction purpose built and opened with driverless operation [2] new construction purpose built for driverless, not driverless at opening, subsequently driverless [3] m-a-j-o-r rebuild of an existing line so completely rebuilt effectively a new build bearing no resemblence to the previous line except geographical line of route I am sure there might be an exception to that somewhere on the planet and equally sure my post will catalyse the District Dave collective into posting a rebuff. Either way, it won't be a significant proportion of the world's heavy metros. This is some digression from coronavirus subject thread though ................ not as a rebuff but an example you're looking for is Paris Metro Line 1. There is a dedicated thread about driverless trains, and you are right, this isn't the thread for that. So far four lines have been converted from driver operated to driverless 2010 Nuremburg U2. Shared track over the central section with driverless U3 (opened 2008) 2011 Paris Metro 1. Took four years to convert. New trains (MP05) had same door configuration as old trains (MP89), trains were driver operated while Platform Edge Doors were installed Prior to conversion RATP negotiated a deal with CGT drivers union, all drivers were displaced to other lines after conversion was complete (with hefty bonuses all round) 2017 Singapore North South 2018 Singapore East West. Both lines already had Platform Edge Doors Currently mid-conversion 2023 Paris Metro 4. Five year conversion, I imagine they're following the same pattern as M1 Possible future conversion Glasgow Subway, Will have PEDs. At the moment the new trains are undergoing trial running but there have been delays installing the new signal system into the old Victorian tunnels All other driverless railways were built driverless and all other driver operated railways are still driver operated TfL and the government can consdier driverless operation on the Tube as much as it wants, it would be expensive, take decades and would need the unions co-operation. A red herring
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