Question

[Deleted]

Why does the Jubilee Line have special doors at every station?

[Deleted]

the jubilee line does not have platform edge doors at every station
only stations between north greenwich and westminster have them
they were fitted beacause they reduce the ''piston effect'' which is basically the train blowing heat, dust and dirt from the platform and down the tunnel and thus the tunnel is alot cleaner and stations are slightly cooler

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2009 20:24:05 GMT @delboy200 said:

the jubilee line does not have platform edge doors at every station
only stations between north greenwich and westminster have them
they were fitted beacause they reduce the ''piston effect'' which is basically the train blowing heat, dust and dirt from the platform and down the tunnel and thus the tunnel is alot cleaner and stations are slightly cooler

OK, but why only the Jubilee Line? ;D

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2009 20:24:05 GMT @delboy200 said:

the jubilee line does not have platform edge doors at every station
only stations between north Greenwich and Westminster have them
they were fitted because they reduce the ''piston effect'' which is basically the train blowing heat, dust and dirt from the platform and down the tunnel and thus the tunnel is a lot cleaner and stations are slightly cooler

Does anyone know whether fitting all underground sections with PEDs would be cost effective compared to air conditioning, which as we know is prohibitively expensive?

[Deleted]

OK, but why only the Jubilee Line?

Because the Jubilee Line Extension was built relatively recently in 1999, and i'd assume they only just realised it was a good idea or technology issues, somebody else can confirm this.

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2009 20:34:06 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

Aug 22, 2009 20:24:05 GMT @delboy200 said:

the jubilee line does not have platform edge doors at every station
only stations between north Greenwich and Westminster have them
they were fitted because they reduce the ''piston effect'' which is basically the train blowing heat, dust and dirt from the platform and down the tunnel and thus the tunnel is a lot cleaner and stations are slightly cooler

Does anyone know whether fitting all underground sections with PEDs would be cost effective compared to air conditioning, which as we know is prohibitively expensive?

Aparently the PEDs paid for themselves a year or so after use in fewer service suspensions such as trespass, one unders and tunnel fires.

With the rest of the tube network you can't just put up a line of PEDs due to lack of alternative ventilation. The JLE was built with PEDs in mind and draught and wind flows were took into account at the building stage.

[Deleted]

Using PEDs on existing lines would be hugely expensive and difficult - they require a very straight platform and a lot of money.

They also mean that the door layout of trains is limited to the PED layout. The PEDs also mask the inadequate width of the platforms on the JLE to an extent.

The JLE is cooler than other lines because there are more fans that are modern and effective - I wouldn't expect PEDs on existing lines to make much difference.

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2009 20:36:09 GMT @lfbjjcool said:

OK, but why only the Jubilee Line?

Because the Jubilee Line Extension was built relatively recently in 1999, and i'd assume they only just realised it was a good idea or technology issues, somebody else can confirm this.

So does this mean that the East London Line will have special doors?

[Deleted]

So does this mean that the East London Line will have special doors?

Being Sub-Surface along the ELL route and completely open further North and South I would think this negates the usefulness of them, and the safety benefits of stopping people ending up on the track for whatever reason are considered more of a side benefit.

[metman]

The Victoria Line is probably the only line that could be provided with PEDs because most of the platforms are straight. This is the key to the PEDs.

[superteacher]

Aug 22, 2009 23:48:14 GMT metman said:

The Victoria Line is probably the only line that could be provided with PEDs because most of the platforms are straight. This is the key to the PEDs.

Maybe, but many of the Victoria's platforms are quite narrow, so that might be an issue.

[metman]

All the more reason to have PEDs then. It would make it safer on the platforms I would imagine.

[railtechnician]

Aug 24, 2009 10:17:41 GMT superteacher said:

Aug 22, 2009 23:48:14 GMT metman said:

The Victoria Line is probably the only line that could be provided with PEDs because most of the platforms are straight. This is the key to the PEDs.

Maybe, but many of the Victoria's platforms are quite narrow, so that might be an issue.

I wouldn't call any of the Vic platforms narrow, they are all comparable to the other tube lines and indeed better than some.

[Dstock7080]

Hong Kong MTR have managed to install PEDs at 30 stations, 74 platforms retrospectively, (on curved platforms too), without the disruption to train services. This was to add air-conditioning to stations.

[messiah]

Aug 22, 2009 20:44:01 GMT @rob said:

Using PEDs on existing lines would be hugely expensive and difficult - they require a very straight platform and a lot of money.

Aug 24, 2009 16:33:45 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Hong Kong MTR have managed to install PEDs at 30 stations, 74 platforms retrospectively, (on curved platforms too), without the disruption to train services. This was to add air-conditioning to stations.

I would have thought it would be technologically trivial to do curved platform doors. Are there additional safety concerns regarding the gap between platform and train as against normal curved platforms?

[Deleted]

in any case the delays generated by the Platform Edge Doors when they fail (and they do quite a lot) far outweighs any benefits.

[mrfs42]

I suspect increased maintenance costs to keep operating tolerances within installation limits might be a factor with curved PEDs (there's probably some sort of risk weighting too with MTBF standards).

Let's not forget that these things are expensive - dread to think what the cost would be for one platform let alone umpteen, unless the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation tenders for a job lot.

;D

[abe]

It's not true to state that platforms on the Jubilee line with PEDs have to be straight. The platforms with PEDs at Westminster are slightly curved.

[abe]

Aug 24, 2009 19:43:00 GMT @southernrover said:

in any case the delays generated by the Platform Edge Doors when they fail (and they do quite a lot) far outweighs any benefits.

Can this be quantified? It contradicts Reply #5:

Aparently the PEDs paid for themselves a year or so after use in fewer service suspensions such as trespass, one unders and tunnel fires.

I haven't seen anything official stating that the PEDs are such a problem...

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2009 8:00:49 GMT abe said:

Aparently the PEDs paid for themselves a year or so after use in fewer service suspensions such as trespass, one unders and tunnel fires.

I haven't seen anything official stating that the PEDs are such a problem...

I recal reading that in a copy of OTM, I can't find that exact fact online, but I found the following which does claim the doors whilst costly in maintenence have saved money in the reduction of suicides.

The item is about a third way down the page.
www.railway-technical.com/stations.shtml

[Deleted]

You can buy PEDs online
Just found thie following:
www.platformscreendoors.com/

[Ben]

They do gap fillers aswell! Why is it gap fillers have never been installed at the really curved platforms you get on the system?

[mrfs42]

The line 'WPSD Railservices maintain the doors' seems an excuse for another layer of cost if that statement is true.
Lifts and Escalators look after Kone and Otis equipment, why can't they look after PEDs too?

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2009 14:59:04 GMT Ben said:

They do gap fillers aswell! Why is it gap fillers have never been installed at the really curved platforms you get on the system?

Hello from Paris,

Gap fillers have been (are being ?) tested on the metro line 5, (back of one of the platforms at the loop terminal station "Place d'Italie")
A robust system still has to be found !

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2009 23:48:14 GMT metman said:

The Victoria Line is probably the only line that could be provided with PEDs because most of the platforms are straight. This is the key to the PEDs.

Hi again,

In Paris, prior to introduce automatic trains on line 1, they are currently installing PEDs (during the night closure: a few pairs of doors every night).
Some stations have sharp curves (Charles de Gaulle-Etoile or Bastille). But the platforms are slighty wider than they are on your Tube lines. This allows to use straight doors, the angle being in the fixed section between adjoining sets of doors. The design may waste 10 to 20 cm (4 to 8 in) which is not critical.

[Deleted]

Re: Question
« Reply #18 on Aug 28, 2009, 9:00am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aug 24, 2009, 8:43pm, southernrover wrote:in any case the delays generated by the Platform Edge Doors when they fail (and they do quite a lot) far outweighs any benefits.



Can this be quantified? It contradicts Reply #5:

Quote:Aparently the PEDs paid for themselves a year or so after use in fewer service suspensions such as trespass, one unders and tunnel fires.




I haven't seen anything official stating that the PEDs are such a problem...

You won't see anything official unless you request It under the FOI act but as I write the failure and delay reports for them I am in a position to comment.

[Ben]

Oh. Well is there an arguement for their removal?

[Deleted]

The PEDs won't be removed because. It would be a legal minefield. Any accident or injury to anyone. Which wouldn<t have happened if the PEDs were in place would be subject to.compension claims.
Also once an additional safety system iis in place? It virtually never gets removed.

[Ben]

So will it be avoided on future schemes? Like the Northern and Bakerloo bits in South London; obviously a speculative thing though.

[Deleted]

There seems to be a differing opinion here, but as I said, I had read that the PEDs had paid forthemselves, so who knows!