WTT 11

[towerman]

Have seen a draft for WTT11 hoped to start 1st February 2010.57 train peak service with all 6 extra trains coming out of SMD.Stepping back at Stratford in the peaks and PM service from SMD (11 trains) all entering service via Stratford rather than West Ham.

[Deleted]

Will Seltrac be running before WTT11?
How many trains will be reversing at Stratford in the peaks?

[towerman]

You probably won't see Seltrac till WTT12 or even WTT13!!!As for WTT 11 I think there will be more early afternoon reversers at Stratford as the PM service all goes in EB,but there'll still be North Grenwich reversers in the peaks.

[ruislip]

Are any allowances being made for the weekend construction that seems to plague the line every weekend as of late?

[mrfs42]

Oct 13, 2009 18:07:10 GMT towerman said:

but there'll still be North Grenwich reversers in the peaks.

Oo. ;D Splendid.

[towerman]

Have only look ahead up to middle of January,until Christmas at the moment all closures are either Waterloo-Stanmore or West Hamstead-Stanmore.From COT Xmas Eve till SOT 29th December whole line closed for test train running,2nd/3rd January closed Waterloo-Stanmore,9th/10th January whole line shut for trial ops.Won't know what happens after that till the end of next week when the next 6 monthly look ahead is due,that'll take us into the middle of February.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2009 18:07:10 GMT towerman said:

You probably won't see Seltrac till WTT12 or even WTT13!!!As for WTT 11 I think there will be more early afternoon reversers at Stratford as the PM service all goes in EB,but there'll still be North Grenwich reversers in the peaks.

So still 24tph in the peak flow direction then?

[towerman]

Apparently it's 27tph both directions in the peak on this WTT.

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2009 18:33:02 GMT towerman said:

Apparently it's 27tph both directions in the peak on this WTT.

Interesting. So has anything been done to alleviate the signalling bottlenecks that occur during 24tph operation such as at Finchley Rd NB?

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2009 12:34:18 GMT @stephenk said:

Oct 14, 2009 18:33:02 GMT towerman said:

Apparently it's 27tph both directions in the peak on this WTT.

Interesting. So has anything been done to alleviate the signalling bottlenecks that occur during 24tph operation such as at Finchley Rd NB?

Is there a bottleneck at finchley Road on the North?
From what I remember the main bottlenecks on the Jubilee were at Willesden Green and Wembley Park caused by detrainments.

[superteacher]

Does this timetable make use of the 3rd platform at Stanmore?

[towerman]

That's not due to be commissioned till the whole line goes TBTC,supposed to be 2010(allegedly)

[mrfs42]

Oct 15, 2009 22:10:04 GMT towerman said:

That's not due to be commissioned till the whole line goes TBTC,supposed to be 2010(allegedly)

Gosh - that's a [not really/but sort of] surprise.

IIRC I've done a few sketches that had NOG reversing, and the third platform and 27tph tidal flow.. Stable enough to keep the Met. types happy at least. Meal breaks at an average of 4h 07.

[towerman]

They've actually swapped the balance of PM stablers round,on WTT 10 Neasden gets the majority and SMD only gets 6,on WTT 11 Neasden get 6 and SMD 12.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2009 15:13:10 GMT @jim said:

Oct 15, 2009 12:34:18 GMT @stephenk said:

Interesting. So has anything been done to alleviate the signalling bottlenecks that occur during 24tph operation such as at Finchley Rd NB?

Is there a bottleneck at finchley Road on the North?
From what I remember the main bottlenecks on the Jubilee were at Willesden Green and Wembley Park caused by detrainments.

When I used the Jubilee during the peaks, it was common for trains to have to wait at Finchley Rd's NB home signal. On observation it usually took approx 125 secs for the starter at Finchley Rd to clear after the previous train had departed (I don't think it clears until the train ahead has departed West Hampstead). As 27tph = 135secs, this doesn't leave much time for door closing and operating margin.

[towerman]

I've started my TBTC training tonight,from what I'm hearing WTT11 will be protected manual Westminster-North Greenwich,WTT12 will be the whole line in protected manual,then maybe full ATO with WTT13.This will be getting dangerously close to The Olympics.

[superteacher]

Oct 21, 2009 1:06:37 GMT towerman said:

I've started my TBTC training tonight,from what I'm hearing WTT11 will be protected manual Westminster-North Greenwich,WTT12 will be the whole line in protected manual,then maybe full ATO with WTT13.This will be getting dangerously close to The Olympics.

Not necessarily, WTT 11 may only last 6 months or so, then possibly similar for WTT 12. But you never know . . . ;D

[Deleted]

Can I ask some more general questions around the topic. This as someone who lives on the Jubilee and has been messed around completely at weekends for, what, two years now.

The latest target is to finish all the works by December 31 2009. Do I understand that things will now just be left dragging on way into the future, just keeping quiet about the fact that Tube Lines have not finished and that none of the benefits have been delivered ?

Is the real problem that Tube Lines actually do not know how to do it ?

We are told the major benefit of the new ATO signalling is that train service will increase from 24 to 32 trains per hour. As no new trains have been ordered, how can any increase be provided ? I am aware that automatic driving should provide something due to increased speed, but this must be marginal.

Much is made of the additional capacity, which presumably will only be provided at rush hours. Will there be no benefits off-peak or at weekends ?

Looking forward to such projects for the future, are they now no longer worth doing ? I use the Jubilee when I can on Saturdays and Sundays, but not in the week. Its absence means it takes me, each weekend, an extra 30-60 minutes to get where I am going. Any benefits once completed will just be a minute or two off my journey time. I really would rather they had left a railway with modern signalling (let us not forget the Jubilee is the newest line in London) as it was, not have poured huge amounts of money down the drain, and not have grossly disrupted much of East and South-East London for so long.

[superteacher]

The current timetable means that quite a few trains are unused in the peak hours, so these will be utilised when the upgrade is finished.

ATO will mean a 10 - 15% reduction in journey times, so if ATO was running now, you could provide the same level of service with 5 less trains.

The two points mentioned above is effectively like having 10 more trains at your disposable, which would certainly enable a significent increase in the number of trains per hour.

Also, the service will become more reliable under ATO, as all trains will have the same driving characteristics, thus reducing bunching behind "slow drivers." Some of the Jubilee drivers are like snails at the moment, it has to be said!

I daresay that off peak services will also be improved, as they were when the Central went ATO.

[towerman]

Eventually it will be 30tph in the peaks 24tph off peak & weekends,24tph is the current peak service,sounds like an improvement to me.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2009 21:25:43 GMT superteacher said:

The current timetable means that quite a few trains are unused in the peak hours, so these will be utilised when the upgrade is finished.

Does this mean that the four additional complete trains delivered in 2006 have spent the last four years effectively sat unused ?

[North End]

Oct 23, 2009 15:02:52 GMT @diana said:

Oct 21, 2009 21:25:43 GMT superteacher said:

The current timetable means that quite a few trains are unused in the peak hours, so these will be utilised when the upgrade is finished.

Does this mean that the four additional complete trains delivered in 2006 have spent the last four years effectively sat unused ?

They have been used to assist the release of other trains for TBTC modification (Stratford) and testing (Highgate).

[towerman]

At the moment due to the wheel wear problem Alstom are struggling to supply the current service,but wheels are starting to arrive so it may be sorted before the service increase is required.

[londonstuff]

Diana, are you a journalist?

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2009 21:12:05 GMT @diana said:

not have poured huge amounts of money down the drain,

Who mentioned the Drain? I thought this was about the Jubilee

[towerman]

According to the 6 month look ahead WTT 11 is due to start on 31st January.

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2009 1:40:24 GMT towerman said:

Eventually it will be 30tph in the peaks 24tph off peak & weekends,24tph is the current peak service,sounds like an improvement to me.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that 24tph is overkill during the off-peak?

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2009 18:36:27 GMT londonstuff said:

Diana, are you a journalist?

Oh dear. Is my spelling and grammar really that bad ?

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2009 6:47:17 GMT @stephenk said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that 24tph is overkill during the off-peak?

Just you

[superteacher]

I know that 24tph certainly is not overkill on the Central!!! The Jubilee would benefit from it too!