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Post by glasgowdriver on Jun 6, 2010 13:05:36 GMT
just having a look at engingeering works for the next 6 months ahead on tfl website and noticed the following Mon 26-Jul-10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Circle, Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Edgware Road Mon 09-Aug-10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Circle, Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Edgware Road Mon 02-Aug-10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Circle, Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Edgware Road Sat 07 Aug 10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Circle, Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Edgware Road Sat 24-Jul-10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Whitechapel and no Circle line Sat 31 Jul 10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Circle, Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Edgware Road Mon 26-Jul-10 Sun 15 Aug 10 Circle, Hammersmith & City Hammersmith to Edgware Road then further down the whole hamm city is closed hammersmith - barking and no circle line for weeks on end again what on earth is going on with this it seems a bit extreme?  ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2010 13:30:54 GMT
In a nut-shell you could have countless weekends (maybe 25+) to get the amount of work done that you can in a 3 week MF blockade.
Remember every posession involves setting up and taking away plant, equipment, infrastructure changes (ie rail gaps etc). This takes up valuable time in a 52 hour weekend posession.
I imagine this closure is designed to maximise the worksite potential and probably means that large jobs, ie long sections of track replacement etc, can occur that would not ordiarily be possible in a standard 52 hour closure.
Some people do feel this is the best way to do things, one big hit so's to speak!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2010 13:38:08 GMT
The majority will be platform work/ associated work - for your new trains you'll be getting.
Better to get the works done in a 3 week period than say a Jubilee Line style multiple weekend closure?
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Post by glasgowdriver on Jun 6, 2010 13:54:06 GMT
i totally agree with the long closure yeah it will be a pain for first few days but hey at end of the day look at the finished product you are getting brand new trains faster journey times and a better service
also as i am station staff on a jubilee line station i personally think the long clousre would have bee far better than weekend closures for the amount of work taking place but at end of the day the finished product is going to be a much better service for customers
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Post by londonstuff on Jun 6, 2010 18:57:56 GMT
I agree that longer, several week closures are probably the way forward and should have been tried much earlier - apart from anything else, I'd have thought it'd actually been cheaper to do it this way.
Does anyone know if places such as platform work at, e.g. Goldhawk Road, which has been cordoned off/boarded for as long as I've lived in London (>4 years)?
Given that there aren't really any points apart from (what looks like) a fairly simple set at Royal Oak to necessitate such a long closure, will it also be the track being replaced?
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Post by citysig on Jun 6, 2010 19:18:09 GMT
A large amount of the work being undertaken during the Hammersmith-Edgware Road suspensions is mainly related to 2 main projects. One is the Crossrail project, with work focusing around Paddington. The other is at Hammersmith, where some station works will be carried out in connection with platform lengthening ready for the new trains.
Both are very large projects of a sort of "Once you start you have to finish" nature, involving lots of work which won't always be immediately apparent to the passer-by once finished (although Hammersmith will eventually be very apparent.) None of the work is able to be done under normal "weekend" conditions - by the time all the kit was in place and a start made, it would be time to pack it all up again in time for Monday morning. Not the simple "Putting up a bookshelf DIY stuff" but more the "Pulling down the house and starting from scratch" type of thing.
Other, smaller scale works will take advantage of the shutdown, but I don't believe large scale trackworks figure in the plans.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2010 19:29:26 GMT
Presumably there will be no access to/from Hammersmith depot, hence significantly reducing C stock availability. Is there anywhere else with the capability and spare capacity to maintain some C stock for the 3 weeks or is it the entire lot forced out of service? I know some are stabled at Triangle and Barking sidings, as well as possibly Parsons Green, but I don't know what maintence facilities they have. I suspect given the geography of Triangle and Parsons Green, not a lot in those two cases.
I agree that it is far better to get the work done in a 3 week, 23 day long closure rather than several weekends, which would result in more closure days. Then again, I am biased as I normally visit London on Saturdays.
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Post by citysig on Jun 6, 2010 19:36:21 GMT
There are arrangements to use other maintenance depots for the C-stock. I've been away for a couple of weeks, but last I heard Upminster and Lillie Bridge depots were being utilised for carrying out routine C-stock maintenance.
As I said, the work is of a nature that necessitates the closures - the work that needs to be done simply cannot be completed or even part completed in a weekend. I'm not sure if the wind has changed completely and this type of closure is the way forward. I very much doubt it at this stage.
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Post by djlynch on Jun 6, 2010 19:53:46 GMT
Is it back to Circle line Mk I during the period when Hammersmith-Praed St Jn is closed, or are the powers that be crazy enough to keep the Circle reversing alongside Wimblewares and the truncated H&C?
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Post by jakehn54 on Jun 6, 2010 20:04:28 GMT
I agree that longer, several week closures are probably the way forward and should have been tried much earlier - apart from anything else, I'd have thought it'd actually been cheaper to do it this way. Does anyone know if places such as platform work at, e.g. Goldhawk Road, which has been cordoned off/boarded for as long as I've lived in London (>4 years)? Given that there aren't really any points apart from (what looks like) a fairly simple set at Royal Oak to necessitate such a long closure, will it also be the track being replaced? Yes can someone please tell me that, what is going on behind the hoarding at Goldhawk Road, its been like it for years but no sign of progress. |
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Post by citysig on Jun 6, 2010 21:19:38 GMT
Is it back to Circle line Mk I during the period when Hammersmith-Praed St Jn is closed, or are the powers that be crazy enough to keep the Circle reversing alongside Wimblewares and the truncated H&C? Half and half really. Much of the blockade will see the "old Circle" running - and no doubt regular punters during the week can experience the unreliability that came with that service, and maybe by the end will be begging for a return to the "new Circle" which will of course be an interesting irony. Maybe the "powers that be" won't seem as "crazy" by that time. |
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Post by citysig on Jun 6, 2010 21:22:50 GMT
Yes can someone please tell me that, what is going on behind the hoarding at Goldhawk Road, its been like it for years but no sign of progress. It's a hoarding. It's designed to keep people away from a specific area for any number of reasons. It is not labelled with "new exciting development behind here" so therefore take it that it is a "temporary" barrier that, over time, has become more permanent because it would be a waste of time and money to replace it with anything more robust such as a brick wall. |
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Post by Colin on Jun 7, 2010 0:29:42 GMT
I know some are stabled at Triangle and Barking sidings, as well as possibly Parsons Green, but I don't know what maintence facilities they have. I just thought I'd pick up on this specific question as it appears to have gone unanswered..... In a nut shell, their name gives them away - Barking sidings, Triangle sidings and Parsons Green sidings - they are all sidings which means there are absolutely no maintenance facilities (apart from perhaps a few consumable odds & sods like spare light bulbs, log books, J door covers or fuses). It is absolutely impossible to do any of the normal maintenance carried out by Hammersmith depot. Both Ealing Common & Upminster depots are capable of maintaining C stocks as they both supply the overnight staff for train preps in the above mentioned sidings, however this would be subject to available spare parts (they both only hold parts for D stocks) - so not an impossibility whilst Hammersmith is out of commission, but it could well be that a given train's required maintenance is delayed whilst parts are sourced from Hammersmith. Ealing Common is the better option as Acton Town drivers are C stock trained (with the exception of the pool and I/O's, Upminster drivers are not) and of course Ealing Common is much closer to Hammersmith. The major negative point is that there is no extra space available at Ealing Common - nor Upminster either come to that. So maintenance will certainly be something where innovative solutions will be required, let alone any outstabling if that's planned to occur.... |
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Post by glasgowdriver on Jun 7, 2010 13:44:56 GMT
dont they normally stable c stocks in farringdon siddings during service distruptions etc so would they not put 3 c stocks "to bed" there and edgware road crew would pick them up from there or is that not possible???
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Post by londonstuff on Jun 7, 2010 13:55:21 GMT
Wouldn't Edgware Road also have been an option if they were still in use? (Are they?)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2010 14:36:43 GMT
Wouldn't Edgware Road also have been an option if they were still in use? (Are they?) No, ERD sidings no longer in use. As for Farringon, permanent possession until sometime in July, and I honestly couldn't say if we're getting them back after that. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on that front. |
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Post by Harsig on Jun 7, 2010 14:45:40 GMT
As for Farringon, permanent possession until sometime in July, and I honestly couldn't say if we're getting them back after that. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on that front. The Farringdon sidings possession is listed as lasting until start of traffic 5th July. This is the Monday following the weekend that sees the commencement of Hammersmith branch closure. I doubt this is a coincidence. The sidings have already been temporarily returned to use over a couple of weekends in May when extra stabling was required in the city and I would suggest that the plan is that the sidings will be again available for the duration of the works on the Hammersmith Branch. |
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Post by glasgowdriver on Jun 7, 2010 15:16:37 GMT
woohoo i was correct for once haha
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Post by londonstuff on Jun 7, 2010 15:30:16 GMT
Slightly off topic, but why are Edgware Road sidings now out of use? As I'd hinted at in a thread a few months back, the removal of points and sidings seem to be increasingly common, but even when not needed on a daily basis, surely closures like this show that there is use in retaining them...
Ones that come to mind:
Edgware Road
Farringdon (extended temporary)
Liverpool Street bay road
Some sort of point removal at Baker Street?
King's Cross third platform/bay road after 1987
2 sidings by Ealing Common eastbound platform (dunno anything about these, but look completely rusty)
Piccadilly Circus on the Bakerloo that was out of commission for about 2 years I think
The above may not be entirely accurate or, indeed, there may well be more that I can't think of off the top of my head, but there certainly seem to be numerous examples of sidings/crossovers disappearing where they might actually be of use. I'm willing to be shot down about any of the above as I don't know too much detail of reasons why they disappeared, it's just more of a casual observation.
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 7, 2010 16:09:03 GMT
ISTR that there is a new bulk supply point for the electricity going in on the site of the sidings.
Might be wrong though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2010 17:03:32 GMT
2 sidings by Ealing Common eastbound platform (dunno anything about these, but look completely rusty) These aren't sidings as such, they are shunting necks for shunting trains in Ealing Common Depot and are still used. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2010 18:11:49 GMT
Kings Cross middle bay was built, but never regularly used as there was no reason to terminate E/b services there. I think it was OOU by the late 1950s, certainly by 1966.
Liverpool Street platform 3 was to the side of the through lines, so using it actually reduced capacity in the peak - much better to run all trains through to Aldgate to reverse in the middle platforms. Last used around 1985/6 I think.
You could retain these for emergencies, but realistically there are already adequate facilities nearby and maintaining these increases maintainence requirements and adds more components to go wrong.
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Post by citysig on Jun 7, 2010 22:25:07 GMT
Edgware Road sidings will be back at some point - though the shape in which they (or it) return is not yet clear.
Farringdon sidings will be re-entering possession shortly after the current "end date" being circulated, and whilst they will return fully at some point, they too will be "changed / reduced."
The stabling of trains during the shutdown has, I hear, been fully resolved - the timetables are more than likely pretty much signed and sealed. The only issue being foreseen is the movement of the umpteen engineers trains out of the closure area at the end of the shutdown in August. Currently a separate weekend shutdown on the Uxbridge branch (including Ruislip depot) clashes with the engineers trains ex-Hammersmith branch needing to return there.
There are more than a few work-arounds for this, and it's an operational hurdle that shouldn't impact on other services.
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Post by Tom on Jun 7, 2010 22:29:47 GMT
Edgware Road sidings will be back at some point - though the shape in which they (or it) return is not yet clear. As I understand it, one siding is to be recommissioned in early 2013. |
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Post by DWS on Jun 8, 2010 7:16:31 GMT
Edgware Road sidings will be back at some point - though the shape in which they (or it) return is not yet clear. As I understand it, one siding is to be recommissioned in early 2013. I take it that this one siding will have been lengthened to take the new S7 stock ? |
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Post by ruislip on Jun 8, 2010 12:33:19 GMT
Liverpool Street platform 3 was to the side of the through lines, so using it actually reduced capacity in the peak - much better to run all trains through to Aldgate to reverse in the middle platforms. Last used around 1985/6 I think. Didn't the Liverpool St peak reversers ex-Amersham and ex-Chesham cease earlier than that? |
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Post by glasgowdriver on Jun 8, 2010 15:19:51 GMT
and as for the bakerloo line at picc circus these points are now back in use after getting replaced over a 4 day long weekend closure
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 19:25:09 GMT
Liverpool Street platform 3 was to the side of the through lines, so using it actually reduced capacity in the peak - much better to run all trains through to Aldgate to reverse in the middle platforms. Last used around 1985/6 I think. Didn't the Liverpool St peak reversers ex-Amersham and ex-Chesham cease earlier than that? A good question - I remember the platform and track being intact in 1983-4 when I was at an office near Liverpool Street, but I don't know if there were still timetabled services using it or if it was disused by then. MRFS or reganorak would probably be able to fill in the blanks... |
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 8, 2010 19:38:56 GMT
Didn't the Liverpool St peak reversers ex-Amersham and ex-Chesham cease earlier than that? A good question - I remember the platform and track being intact in 1983-4 when I was at an office near Liverpool Street, but I don't know if there were still timetabled services using it or if it was disused by then. MRFS or reganorak would probably be able to fill in the blanks... *wanders into library* ;D As a first port of call I'll look in the OPO introduction WTTs, and I'm pretty sure that the trailing crossover was recommissioned in 1982. Bit of a needle in a haystack job - and distinctly off-topic! Hmm. After reading only three WTTs, I've found an ex-Chesham service reversing at Liverpool St - Met No 2 WTT 279 (6/10/80) has the 0733 ex Chm running with a TD of LS5, booked into Liverpool St at 0834; 0753½ ex-Amersham in at 0848; 0804 ex-Chm in at 0904; 08a24½ ex-Am in at 0919½; 0839 ex-Am in at 0935½; 0854½ ex-Am in at 0949½. This last Liverpool Street reverser has Stop with a reurn working off LS at 1616, so it was an interpeak stabler in the bay, giving no slack hours reversers there in this WTT. The evening busy gives the 1525½ (1620), 1540½ (1634½), 1555½ (1648½), 1610½ (1704½) all ex-Uxbridge reversing in Liverpool St () time is the booked arrival. Then 1627 ex-Rickmansworth (1720), 1640 ex-Watford (1736), 1654½ ex-Am (1751½), 1724½ ex-Am (1820½) [coincidentally the last arrival into the City in this WTT] also being Liverpool Street reversers.
Looking at the next No 2 section WTT (281: 6/12/82) all Liverpool Street reversers had ceased. Therefore the last time the bay was booked to be sued in anger would have been on Friday, 4th December 1982 - 110 years to the day after the Mary Celeste was found!Back on-topic.... |
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Post by londonstuff on Jun 8, 2010 21:15:47 GMT
and as for the bakerloo line at picc circus these points are now back in use after getting replaced over a 4 day long weekend closure Which is why I used the imperfect tense: Piccadilly Circus on the Bakerloo that was out of commission for about 2 years I think |
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