Railway signalling "good reads"

[paterson00]

I am hoping to do well in the signalling world in time as, at present I am only young and have a long time to go, unless I win the lottery, so would like to have a good understanding of signalling principles etc. i would eventually love to be able to sit the IRSE exam but am a long way off that yet.

My question is which books would be recommended as beneficial to read in my quest for knowledge?

I would like to go through the T/O training but in my current position I will not be given that training so will have to make do off my own back in the meantime

[rincew1nd]

Everybody who has anything to do with railways should read Red for Danger by L.T.C. Rolt.

[mrfs42]

Jul 15, 2010 20:55:34 GMT rincew1nd said:

Everybody who has anything to do with railways should read Red for Danger by L.T.C. Rolt.

I might have to leave the Shoreditch/Whitechapel diagram in his uncles relation's porch on Saturday....

Seriously what level of technical information woud you like - or would you like a bit of background reading?

If you want straight technical then look for copies of the 'green' and 'red' books (as in IRSE textbooks) - the old 'green books'[1] have been reprinted by the IRSE unfortunately the recoding of their website is awful, so I can't point you at a suitable url....

*wanders off and starts searching*

[1]My copy of No 4 - single line control is autographed by the author. WRT 'Green Books' there is a forum reference here, but there is a distinction to be drawn between the 'green book' and the 'green books'. The 1980 book is the 'Green Book' (it'll teach you a lot about the general principles of Track Circuit Block, route calling and NX panels - but not a lot more...

[mrfs42]

Hmm. After a bit of tinkering around in the 'net it appear that the best way of finding out what the IRSE are capable of selling to you is by visiting here and clicking on the bit under the 'more information' button. Not intutitive to find and certainly not helpful!

If you click on the link about "publications/sales order forms" underneath the right hand side of the page (under the photomontage) you'll get a Word document to download.

I hope it helps - the entire thing is counterintuitive...

[paterson00]

Jul 15, 2010 23:55:26 GMT mrfs42 said:

Jul 15, 2010 20:55:34 GMT rincew1nd said:

Everybody who has anything to do with railways should read Red for Danger by L.T.C. Rolt.

I might have to leave the Shoreditch/Whitechapel diagram in his uncles relation's porch on Saturday....

Seriously what level of technical information woud you like - or would you like a bit of background reading?

If you want straight technical then look for copies of the 'green' and 'red' books (as in IRSE textbooks) - the old 'green books'[1] have been reprinted by the IRSE unfortunately the recoding of their website is awful, so I can't point you at a suitable url....

*wanders off and starts searching*

[1]My copy of No 4 - single line control is autographed by the author. WRT 'Green Books' there is a forum reference here, but there is a distinction to be drawn between the 'green book' and the 'green books'. The 1980 book is the 'Green Book' (it'll teach you a lot about the general principles of Track Circuit Block, route calling and NX panels - but not a lot more...

I already have the Green and Red books. I tried to read them cover to cover like a story book but this is clearly the wrong approach as maybe a fifth stuck.... maybe...

I would like to know not only how things work (technical) but why they are designed that way and not this (so historical) would also be beneficial.

I have also through the last few years copied every persons course notes that have been kind enough to let me do so, so my library is fairly healthy already, digesting the information is the main problem. I tend to try and bite off too much I think. As someone pointed out the other night, the best way to learn railway signalling is like how you would have to eat an Elephant, one bite at a time. A good analagy i think. the subject is so vast.

I drive to work and home again and all over london during work so I would love to be able to put the books onto an audio CD and have a quest of how to make this happen, I could get three hours a night studying while im getting paid and that would be fantastic. I could very much so use software that recognises text characters and converts it to speech.

I have looked at the library of the IRSE and Im sure that if you are a member then you have full access to any of these books and they will send them out to you in the post but as yet I am not a member.

[tubeprune]

I produced this

www.tubeprune.com/LU%20Course%20Sig%20v2.pdf

based on my UN articles.

[health warning]Please understand that it is not an official document and it was written for people without an engineering background.[/health warning]

[Deleted]

For history the FNRM (Friends of the National Railway Museum did a series "The History and Development of Railway Signalling in the British Isles" (Vol 1 was Broad Survey by Stanley Hall, which was quite enough for me)

O S Nock did a History of the IRSE at 50 in 1962, which is probably worth reading.

There is a Yahoo "Railway Signalling" group ( finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Railway-Signaling/ ), which although largely American might be worth a look at.

Jul 16, 2010 6:32:48 GMT tubeprune said:

I produced this

www.tubeprune.com/LU Course Sig v2.pdf

from my old UN articles.

That link comes up with a 404 not found error for me.

[mrfs42]

This version of the Clicky link works - it needed the %20s putting in.

[tubeprune]

Jul 16, 2010 8:50:48 GMT mrfs42 said:

This version of the Clicky link works - it needed the %20s putting in.

Thanks M, I wasn't aware that this sort of thing was still a problem. Don't servers insert them automatically?

[Colin]

That's a very comprehensive guide Tunbeprune, but I note within it that you don't know why signals are referred to internally as 'sticks' - are you being serious?!! ;D ;D

The term 'stick' relates to the stick relay that prevents a semi automatic signal from returning to a Green aspect unless the lever in a cabin is re-stroked.

[paterson00]

That looks like a good foundation.

[tubeprune]

Jul 16, 2010 16:18:30 GMT Colin said:

That's a very comprehensive guide Tunbeprune, but I note within it that you don't know why signals are referred to internally as 'sticks' - are you being serious?!! ;D ;D

The term 'stick' relates to the stick relay that prevents a semi automatic signal from returning to a Green aspect unless the lever in a cabin is re-stroked.

Are you sure? I mean, autos are called sticks too.

[Chris M]

I have absolutely nothing to go on by my gut feeling, but that feels quite a retcon^[1]-like explanation Colin. I'd have thought it more likely related to the fact that signals (at least those in the open) are positioned at the top of sticks (poles). Part of this is the knowledge that very often the simplest answer is the correct one - particularly where slang is concerned.

[1] "retroactive continuity", originally from soap operas and serial dramas, where new storylines give new meanings/interpretations/explanations to past events, especially where these are significantly different to how it was explained at the time. Think Dallas's "it was all a dream". See also "backronym".

[Colin]

It's what I've always been consistently told by many different grades over the years.

I would suggest the term has evolved to encompass auto's despite them working in a different way simply because it's easy to refer to any signal with the one word.

EDIT: in any case, not all auto's are pure auto's.

Many signals plated as auto's can in fact be approach cleared only - wouldn't they then require a stick relay to hold the red aspect until the signal is selected to be cleared? Then there are draw up's - surely they need them too?

Even some X signals can be held with a red aspect despite supposing to be proper automatic signals.

This is why I think the term has naturally evolved.

[Deleted]

A stick relay is just to re-engerise the circuit thingyme. With a human operated lever frame this is done by restroking the lever from normal to reverse. There are some that don't have the stick relay like OP4, 31 and 36? (the one in the rear of OP33/34/35).
Plus many if not all levers in IMRs don't have stick relays, then there's places with SSI like Heathrow T5!

It's just one of those Tubespeak words that has come in to play a lot, most people probably think of them as sticks now, as a signal are lights on a stick...

[Tom]

I'ts very rare for an IMR to use stick relays. I think Heathrow T5 does though, even though it's a relay interlocking and not a frame.

All the stick relay does is give a 'one shot' function; it's designed to prevent the lever being kept reverse (or button continuously pushed).

[Deleted]

I am sure that most of signalling experts on here can help with specific questions you may have. You may also like to have a look at this site (and maybe join it's forum):

www.signalbox.org

[mrfs42]

'Stick' as a term for a signal [1] comes from the nomenclature used by US&S (and Westinghouse) for the majority of circuits as originally introduced on the UERL.

The term is also used in exactly the same context with Victorian [2] Speed signaling, especially "their" version of BS 376. Albeit these days, the strange symbols on the far end of the grid for 'semi-auto non-stick' or 'auto stick 45° - 90°'.

I suppose I'd be wandering quite a long way off UndergrounD territory if I mentioned 'signal fleeting'? Not too sure of the etymology of 'fleet' in this context but it means that the stick function is over-ridden and the signal is a 'semi-auto-stick' - IOW the signal can function as a semi-automatic and be cleared automatically for/by the passage of trains; it can also be manually controlled; or the 'stick' part of the circuit can be over-ridden. Remove the stick bit of the circuit and you 'fleet' the signal. There is a lot more detail about fleeting with specific reference to the NYC Subway around on the net.

I digress....

[1] moving spectacle, LR/SR CL or EP semaphore.

[2] geographical, not historical.

It's worth commenting too on the adoption of Interboro' practice in the early years of Power signalling - a lot of yanqui signaling practices were ..er.. adapted. Unsurprising if you're aware of the connection between Union Switch and Signal (US&S) and Westinghouse.

[railtechnician]

Jul 17, 2010 11:34:49 GMT Tom said:

I'ts very rare for an IMR to use stick relays. I think Heathrow T5 does though, even though it's a relay interlocking and not a frame.

All the stick relay does is give a 'one shot' function; it's designed to prevent the lever being kept reverse (or button continuously pushed).

The odd IMR circuit has a stick relay, for instance 7SR at Acton East IMR. My recollection is that such deviations from standard IMR circuitry are to take account of special circumstances. 7's route being the shunt signal on 24 road allowing moves to either 21 siding or into Acton Works.

[d7666]

Surely is not the origin of stick for signal much more simple than this ?

A semaphore signal can be considered as ''a stick of wood'' on a post; well at least old ones when they used wood arm on wood posts.

I know for sure main line (i.e. no LT/LU) semaphores controlled from 100% mechanical 19th century boxes with hardly a relay of any type for any reason on the premises can be called sticks. By many people, inside and outside the rail industry. This type of mechnical wooden semaphore arms existed way before relays came into use.

It must be either coincidence that the term stick for a certain relay type/function came about from one maker, or the term has become confused and/or corrupted and/or applied backwards to the LT usage, rather like a ''backronym'' [but there no term like that for non-acronyms].


--
Nick

[railtechnician]

Jul 21, 2010 14:21:45 GMT d7666 said:

Surely is not the origin of stick for signal much more simple than this ?

A semaphore signal can be considered as ''a stick of wood'' on a post; well at least old ones when they used wood arm on wood posts.

I know for sure main line (i.e. no LT/LU) semaphores controlled from 100% mechanical 19th century boxes with hardly a relay of any type for any reason on the premises can be called sticks. By many people, inside and outside the rail industry. This type of mechnical wooden semaphore arms existed way before relays came into use.

It must be either coincidence that the term stick for a certain relay type/function came about from one maker, or the term has become confused and/or corrupted and/or applied backwards to the LT usage, rather like a ''backronym'' [but there no term like that for non-acronyms].


--
Nick

When I began my LT career the auto signals on the Northern line were not A signals but S signals, S for Stick !

I don't know if there is any definitive evidence relating to when the term stick was applied to a signal but remember that the original signals were people known as policemen. They had a habit of dropping off to sleep or being distracted when standing in one place for hours on end and I can quite easily see that replacing them with something inanimate and made of wood that resembled a thick stick could well have given rise to the term that I have understood to mean signal from my very first days on the railway.

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2010 15:49:39 GMT railtechnician said:

When I began my LT career the auto signals on the Northern line were not A signals but S signals, S for Stick !

There are still some S signals on the south end of the Northern line.

[d7666]

original signals were people known as policemen.

Indeed, they were policemen.

Hence the term ''bobby'' for signaller is still used, in the main lime at least, can't say I've ever heard it used in any of the LU SCC I worked/work in and around.

Now bobby is a clear case, but there are terms that have got confused over time.

Take the term ''peg'' for example. Many railmen and enthusiasts use and believe the term peg in the main line - as in ''got the peg'' or ''the peg is off/on'' to mean the signal is clear/not, and, in some cases that peg means the signal arm itself.

That may well be what people think and believe, but it is not the original meaning. The term peg derives from a pegging block instrument where literally a small peg was pushed into a hole in the instrument to hold locked part of the device. In turn, that unlocked or locked whatever the function was that cleared the signal or blocked the road, depending on where its exact use. The trackside signal aspect is a function of a pegging instrument, and not the peg itself. But you can argue that one until you are blue in the face, some will never accept it.

I am not saying stick is as ardently fought over as peg is by certain individuals I could name, but it just might be based on a similar befuddled mis-use over time.




--
Nick

[mrfs42]

Jul 21, 2010 14:21:45 GMT d7666 said:

Surely is not the origin of stick for signal much more simple than this ?

A semaphore signal can be considered as ''a stick of wood'' on a post; well at least old ones when they used wood arm on wood posts.

The usage of the term 'stick' came in with the power signalling - because that's what the cheeky young turks at Chippenham called the majority of controlled signals - 'semi-auto stick'.

I have seen the phrase still used (I think) as late as 1938 when I was reading the Wembley Park bookwiring - which was a Chippenham blue linen, rather than an Earls Court job.

[railtechnician]

Jul 21, 2010 19:51:39 GMT d7666 said:

original signals were people known as policemen.

Indeed, they were policemen.

Hence the term ''bobby'' for signaller is still used, in the main lime at least, can't say I've ever heard it used in any of the LU SCC I worked/work in and around.

Now bobby is a clear case, but there are terms that have got confused over time.

Take the term ''peg'' for example. Many railmen and enthusiasts use and believe the term peg in the main line - as in ''got the peg'' or ''the peg is off/on'' to mean the signal is clear/not, and, in some cases that peg means the signal arm itself.

That may well be what people think and believe, but it is not the original meaning. The term peg derives from a pegging block instrument where literally a small peg was pushed into a hole in the instrument to hold locked part of the device. In turn, that unlocked or locked whatever the function was that cleared the signal or blocked the road, depending on where its exact use. The trackside signal aspect is a function of a pegging instrument, and not the peg itself. But you can argue that one until you are blue in the face, some will never accept it.

I am not saying stick is as ardently fought over as peg is by certain individuals I could name, but it just might be based on a similar befuddled mis-use over time.




--
Nick

'Pegging' is a widely used and still current term in use amongst the LUL signalling fraternity. 'Pegging' is an action to enable or disable something to achieve a desired outcome. Peg refers to the action, not the equipment which can be 'pegged' or 'unpegged', either of which could be the normal state depending upon the equipment, its function and location.

For instance to hold 'off' a trainstop deliberately is to 'peg' it, the modern method is by 'pegging the trainstop valve' which is normally done by mechanical means. When I began my LT career we pegged trainstops by inserting a section of half cylinder around the motor arm to prevent the return travel via the main spring and thus keep the trainstop 'off'. This was the preferred method during resignalling where newly laid uncommissioned trainstops were not to interfere with the passage of trains although I hadn't seen it done that way in many years.

Relays can be 'pegged' though generally it will be by electrical means. Equipment is 'pegged' for all sorts of reasons such as passing engineers trains or test trains where the signalling would otherwise not allow it or under certain failure conditions to restore limited passenger service etc by 'pegging' something out of commission.

'Pegging' of safety signalling equipment is done only in accordance with very strict rules, regulations and procedures by trained and licensed staff and with written authority on each and every occasion.

[Tom]

Jul 23, 2010 10:42:17 GMT railtechnician said:

'Pegging' is a widely used and still current term in use amongst the LUL signalling fraternity. 'Pegging' is an action to enable or disable something to achieve a desired outcome. Peg refers to the action, not the equipment which can be 'pegged' or 'unpegged', either of which could be the normal state depending upon the equipment, its function and location.

I think this is another phrase that has a completely different meaning to that on the main line. The equivalent on NR would be to 'frig' the function.

Rest assured the practice of pegging trainstops off still exists - I've seen a few designs where trainstops have been specified to be pegged off in the last few years.

[Deleted]

Jul 23, 2010 11:02:08 GMT Tom said:

Rest assured the practice of pegging trainstops off still exists - I've seen a few designs where trainstops have been specified to be pegged off in the last few years.

I've also known it to be done in an emergency situation during an ongoing incident (i.e. pegging the trainstop to prevent trains from being tripped/backtripped) - with appropriate authority of course.

Also on the subject of "policeman" on LU a policeman is a speed-controlled trainstop without an associated signal, often found in terminus platforms (to ensure trains don't go into a dead-end at excessive speed). I don't know if the root of that name is the same as "bobby" on the mainline.

[paterson00]

Jul 23, 2010 11:02:08 GMT Tom said:

Jul 23, 2010 10:42:17 GMT railtechnician said:

'I think this is another phrase that has a completely different meaning to that on the main line. The equivalent on NR would be to 'frig' the function.

To "frig" the detection, to clear the route

[railtechnician]

Jul 23, 2010 16:43:33 GMT @tfc said:

Jul 23, 2010 11:02:08 GMT Tom said:

Rest assured the practice of pegging trainstops off still exists - I've seen a few designs where trainstops have been specified to be pegged off in the last few years.

I've also known it to be done in an emergency situation during an ongoing incident (i.e. pegging the trainstop to prevent trains from being tripped/backtripped) - with appropriate authority of course.

Also on the subject of "policeman" on LU a policeman is a speed-controlled trainstop without an associated signal, often found in terminus platforms (to ensure trains don't go into a dead-end at excessive speed). I don't know if the root of that name is the same as "bobby" on the mainline.

Wrong road trainstops associated with fixed red lights such as found at Kings Cross WB Picc east end (ensuring a driver does not take the train in the wrong direction as happened once on the Victoria line) are also known as policeman.

It's hard to know where the term came from but they've only been around since Moorgate and subsequent incidents occured and the railway has a habit of giving everything a nickname, 'policeman' is apt as policing speed is what speed control and wrong road trainstops are attempting to do.

[railtechnician]

Jul 23, 2010 11:02:08 GMT Tom said:

Jul 23, 2010 10:42:17 GMT railtechnician said:

'Pegging' is a widely used and still current term in use amongst the LUL signalling fraternity. 'Pegging' is an action to enable or disable something to achieve a desired outcome. Peg refers to the action, not the equipment which can be 'pegged' or 'unpegged', either of which could be the normal state depending upon the equipment, its function and location.

I think this is another phrase that has a completely different meaning to that on the main line. The equivalent on NR would be to 'frig' the function.

Rest assured the practice of pegging trainstops off still exists - I've seen a few designs where trainstops have been specified to be pegged off in the last few years.

I haven't heard that before in connection with railways but I have heard of 'frigging' which is a term in use in the power generation industry where during failures and incidents or indeed during routine maintenance certain equipment is 'frigged' in order to keep the turbines generating. In the old days 'frigging' was often achieved by removing guards and safety interlocks but these days it is more often done using the various computers and PLCs that control many of the stop, start and reset functions in a power station.