Weekend travel without the Jubilee

[Deleted]

As we seem set for another year of no weekend Jubilee while those "experts" from the signal suppliers try to get things going on their shoestring remaining budget, I’ll just offer some comments on what life is actually like at weekends along the line.

Maybe this can come as news to some of those at TfL, like the Commissioner, who only this week was on the radio boasting about how he goes off back home to Bath at the weekends, enjoying the “quiet zone” in the train. Wouldn’t want to stay in London, would we? Can’t get around anywhere.

So, no Jubilee again. How do we get from Canning Town to Waterloo? Well, we can go to Bank, and the Waterloo & City. Which of course had its weekend services discontinued right in the middle of all this Jubilee mess. Different budget, presumably. Well then, we can go to Tower Gateway and get the RV1 bus from there to Waterloo, serving the Jubilee South Bank points along the way. For this inconvenience, would you believe that TfL charge a second fare? But I know the aforementioned TfL high-ups all have passes, and thus have no idea how much things cost on their system nowadays.

So, off to Tower then. Lots more people on the DLR, as always when the Jubilee is off service. Are the DLR trains enhanced to full 3-car length as a result? Of course not. So we are all squished in.

I think it was Shadwell where, looking from the front of the train, there is the most appalling mess of litter swept from the platform onto the track. I wonder they don’t get a short circuit from the power rail with all the drink cans down there. My guess is there are two cleaning contractors, one for platform and another for tracks, and this is a classic example of reducing costs for A by sweeping the rubbish into B’s responsibility.

Tower Gateway, down the escalator and across the road. The RV1 bus slams its doors and drives off just as the first of several passengers heading for it get level with the rear wheels.

Turn around and head for Tower Hill. Here is real chaos. There’s no Circle either this weekend, so presumably the District line has been enhanced? No way. Nor is there any indication of which platform will have the next train. There are plenty of passengers already sat waiting in a train in the middle platform. Then a through train approaches the outside platform, only then the “next train” lights up (which these people cannot see of course), and when it stops there is a mad rush by about 200 people across the platform, led by those in the know, with the tourists trailing along behind.

On to Embankment. Get off there. Just to help things along, the indicators on the platforms here do not show how many minutes between the trains. Too embarrassing, probably.

Give up on going down to the Bakerloo for Waterloo, we go outside and walk across the bridge.

Now I know some of you boys find these continuing accounts of weekend travel to be tedious. But the whole thing is a continuing shambles which just gets worse and worse. I don’t know another city anywhere else in the world which has allowed their transport system to deteriorate like this. Or charges its citizens so much in fares and taxes to pay for it all. Remind me how much more is that Transport Commissioner I mentioned at the start paid than the Prime Minister?

[Deleted]

I know how you feel, and when ever we say anything about it, we always get a patronising response by people who don't have to use it telling us to stop complaining or think that we take it out on staff.
Really the best alternative route for the jubilee is to walk, the buses are packed, the rail replacement buses take ages anyway and the few tube lines that are open are overcrowded.
So a journey from bond st to finchley road isn't to bad, however when you need to get to somewhere like canary wharf it's well anoying!

[memorex]

Frankly, I do agree with you. It's quite ridiculous, but as you said:

I don’t know another city anywhere else in the world which has allowed their transport system to deteriorate like this.

And that's only going to get worse, considering all the budget cuts. But as you've also mentioned, those who make the decisions most likely don't use LU at the weekends anyway, so it doesn't affect them.

Now don't forget that, on weekends, staff have to use public transport to get to work anyway, so we're all in that together!

[Deleted]

Looking at it from another angle, with the budget cuts, will weekend closures really increase? If there's no money to do the work, there will be no need to close - maybe the service will be running more often at weekends than of late - until it "falls over" completely through lack of investment ....

[Ben]

Jul 25, 2010 11:32:51 GMT memorex said:

those who make the decisions most likely don't use LU at the weekends anyway, so it doesn't affect them.

How true. Hammond is not and will never be a patch on Adonis, who at least had passion.

Its disgusting the amount of political and financial interferance that LT has suffered from since 1960. I mean if an organisational/financial structure doesnt work then why not just copy one from another world system that is working. Why reinvent the wheel.

[21146]

I had an excellent run around on Sat doing the former LT stations between Amersham and Aylesbury. Noted also A Stock reversing in platform 2 at Harrow-on-the-Hill; and still a few MR or LT bridge plates north of Amersham. The day deteriorated once I needed to return via parts of LU. At Marylebone, LU passengers were advised to walk to Baker St rather than use the fixed stairs due to escalator work. I was fool enough to follow this advice, forgetting that the Jubilee, H&C, Circle and Met were ALL suspended at Baker St. Quite why all this work was allowed to coincide and right in the middle of the tourist season; or how the station is can be deemed safe to operate beats me. Hundreds of people all attempting to funnel down the Bakerloo escalator at a snail's pace whilst the rest of the premises were taped off. I gave up and moved on again by bus to Regents Park. Here trains were so crowded SB I had to let two pass just to be able to get on - far worse than rush hour, and all in stifling heat. Those who "plan" these shutdowns clearly have no regard for those with no option but to use public transport at weekends.

[SE13]

FWIW, I don't work for LUL, BUT.....

These upgrades have to be done, after all in 10 years time we'll all be moaning how far behind the times things are.

Peak times are commuter based, as in getting people to work and back, and that's literall basd on the 9-5 system, it's the same through England no matter the form of transport, and they assume that we all work Mon - Fri.

Go further afield, and see how many roads are closed right now for "essential maintenance" because of course nobody works in the summer holidays.

When I drive a bus, I've got someone being paid five time the amount I am, yet he hasn't got the foggiest about the route or traffic conditions, yet he's in a position to tell me how to drive my bus through those conditions.

Go figure.

[Colin]

Jul 25, 2010 10:47:37 GMT @diana said:

Now I know some of you boys find these continuing accounts of weekend travel to be tedious.

That is perhaps the right choice of word - tedious - but I do appreciate that customers are fed up with it. I have to check and write out my duties every weekend as we just don't run the proper service. Thankfully I drive in, but as mentioned many members of staff have to re-plan their travel to & from work just like you do.

Whilst at work we have to answer the same questions over and over again, despite many announcements which people just don't listen to. Yes, I know we have public address overload and it galls me too, but the information is being put out nonetheless. We then have to argue with those that claim it's not (including posters, internet, radio, etc) and then suffer abuse when we still try help after such arguments.

We are only the foot soldiers. We don't choose to endure such abuse or put up with continually disrupted weekends either, but we have to make the best of what the decision makers have given us to work with.

Some of us do our best to explain the what's & why for's, and yet after suffering all day at work (as much if not more than you), we come on here where people are supposed to enthusiasts and a bit more knowledgeable than most and have to go through it all again.

It's no wonder the LU staff on here have given up responding to these sorts of threads!

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2010 20:26:52 GMT SE13 said:

These upgrades have to be done, after all in 10 years time we'll all be moaning how far behind the times things are.

I am afraid you have fallen for the "corporate line" on this.

You will notice that this discussion began with the incessant closure at weekends of the Jubilee Line Extension. Which is 10 years old and just about the newest part of the system.

Yes, engineering work has to be done. Quite regularly. On every metro system worldwide, a significant number of which also have systems over 100 years old now. They do not get into the weekend spiral of decline that the Underground has done.

Notice also that many of the comments above are not just about the actual closures, but the manner in which they are so un-coordinated with the rest of the system, and administered in a frankly incompetent manner.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2010 21:13:19 GMT Colin said:

Whilst at work we have to answer the same questions over and over again, despite many announcements which people just don't listen to. Yes, I know we have public address overload and it galls me too, but the information is being put out nonetheless. We then have to argue with those that claim it's not (including posters, internet, radio, etc)

Would this include, for example, the TfL page on Teletext, which as I write this, on the London Overground page, starts with a general heading that "A good service is being provided", and then, further down the page, appears to list just about every line of the Overground as being closed for works?

Teletext page 436 if you want to check for this nonsense.

[andypurk]

Jul 25, 2010 21:26:48 GMT @diana said:

Jul 25, 2010 21:13:19 GMT Colin said:

Whilst at work we have to answer the same questions over and over again, despite many announcements which people just don't listen to. Yes, I know we have public address overload and it galls me too, but the information is being put out nonetheless. We then have to argue with those that claim it's not (including posters, internet, radio, etc)

Would this include, for example, the TfL page on Teletext, which as I write this, on the London Overground page, starts with a general heading that "A good service is being provided", and then, further down the page, appears to list just about every line of the Overground as being closed for works?

Teletext page 436 if you want to check for this nonsense.

Whilst it might be slightly confusingly worded, it's not wrong. The bits of the network which are running have a good service, but there are engineering works which have closed other parts. Teletext has always been limited in the information that they provide about engineering works.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2010 21:15:56 GMT @diana said:

Jul 25, 2010 20:26:52 GMT SE13 said:

These upgrades have to be done, after all in 10 years time we'll all be moaning how far behind the times things are.

I am afraid you have fallen for the "corporate line" on this.

You will notice that this discussion began with the incessant closure at weekends of the Jubilee Line Extension. Which is 10 years old and just about the newest part of the system.

Yes, engineering work has to be done. Quite regularly. On every metro system worldwide, a significant number of which also have systems over 100 years old now. They do not get into the weekend spiral of decline that the Underground has done.

Notice also that many of the comments above are not just about the actual closures, but the manner in which they are so un-coordinated with the rest of the system, and administered in a frankly incompetent manner.

yes the JLE is new but the signalling on it is un reliable, temporary and has always needed to be replaced, as you may have noticed the signals fail all the time, so I agree with the need to get rid of it.
However tubelies made a complete mess of replacing the signals (first they layed 30 miles of the wrong cable)
I suppose we are now experiencing the side effects of the PPP.

[messiah]

Jul 25, 2010 21:13:19 GMT Colin said:

Thankfully I drive in

Many people in London do not have the luxury of a car. I am sure that these are the ones that get most frustrated and upset when they are left time after time with no decent public transport at weekends.

I appreciate you responding eloquently to this type of thread, however that does not mean I agree with what you say.

I agree it is unacceptable to take out frustration over closures on TFL staff who have no responsibility for planning these measures, however I have never seen anyone taking out the fact that a line is closed on one of the drivers or platform staff - the only people I have seen are those desperately confused and struggling to work out where to go.

[Colin]

In that case I can only assure you it happens.

And I don't live in London, which is why I drive in.

In my part of Essex, which is about as close as you can get to London, there are just three bus routes on Sundays - two run hourly and the third runs 2 hourly. On c2c, one route is half hourly and the other is hourly.

Going into North Essex and 2 hourly bus routes / hourly train services are the norm.

Compare that to London where a metro train service is provided which is turn up and go, even on a Sunday. And when the metro is out, there are still many alternatives with bus routes being far more frequent.

Compared to what you've been used to in the past I can see why you all feel aggrieved, but even with the current disruption you still often get a better service than many other parts of the country, including next door in Essex.

So I'm not going to bother defending LU any more - it is of course a complete conspiracy to disrupt peoples journey's - my angle now will be to point out that you still have it better than the rest of us and that we'd be happy to have what you've got.

[Deleted]

The radio this morning is covering the closure of the Paddington to Hammersmith route for the next month or so, which also of course started off this weekend (was any work actually done before Monday morning though?). The MP for Hammersmith was making the very valid point that, while it is described as "the quickest way to do the necessary works", in actual fact these particular lines have been incessantly closed at weekends for the last several years AS WELL, and that TfL appear to believe that usage of London's public transport system is something which is somehow optional for people, and so they can schedule works as they wish.

[mcmaddog]

While I agree it's not a conspiracy, the Jubilee line upgrade seems to be a monumental engineering cockup. I used to live on the line and at the weekends it became frustratingly miserable. While people had to make do without the line before it was built, I moved there because of the line. The incessant closures do wind people up and I can understand why someone wants to vent it on here. I have never witnessed staff being harrassed over it and would never condone that. Thankfully I've moved away and now travel at weekends without needing to check the TfL board. A bug hug to those I left behind.

[londonstuff]

Jul 25, 2010 21:13:19 GMT Colin said:

Jul 25, 2010 10:47:37 GMT @diana said:

Now I know some of you boys find these continuing accounts of weekend travel to be tedious.

Whilst at work we have to answer the same questions over and over again, despite many announcements which people just don't listen to. Yes, I know we have public address overload and it galls me too, but the information is being put out nonetheless. We then have to argue with those that claim it's not (including posters, internet, radio, etc) and then suffer abuse when we still try help after such arguments.

We are only the foot soldiers. We don't choose to endure such abuse or put up with continually disrupted weekends either, but we have to make the best of what the decision makers have given us to work with.

Some of us do our best to explain the what's & why for's, and yet after suffering all day at work (as much if not more than you), we come on here where people are supposed to enthusiasts and a bit more knowledgeable than most and have to go through it all again.

Check out Version 3.1's photo and the explanation below it - perhaps it illustrates some of the customers you've all got to put up with. </bangs head>

[messiah]

Or maybe people have been misinformed in the past by misleading signs? Anyone remember the No Access to Northern Line sign (or whatever it was) at Kings Cross?

But why that get in the way of a bit of passanger bashing

[version3point1]

Misleading signs, maybe, but it hasn't stopped passengers moving them themselves to get to places that are temporarily closed off. We've gotten to the point now where we have one door open to get into the station (for Ticket Office only, when the station is shut) and having to wedge ourselves between the door frame and a No Entry sign, and still people push me out of the way. When you say there are no trains, it's as if a messiah of sorts has come down to be the bearer of bad news.

And to think every weekend I travel up to two hours (via suspended Met and Jubilee 'alternative routes') just to get to where I work to hear the same old stories. What upsets me more are the regular people I see on a Friday night who ask me what's going on during the weekend, acknowledge it, them come back on the Saturday having completely forgotten and then blaming me for not having told them beforehand.

Then there was the time we thought we'd assume that people knew the rail replacement buses were stopping at stations that were closed, but they were still asking us whether it stopped at X, Y and Z, so I had to manually write up stations the buses were stopping at (as they're not printed on the ones we stick the arrows onto) on each individual poster. Every. Bleeding. WEEKEND.

Some passengers are really nice and are really supportive and not swearing or shouting at you all the time. Or calling you a c u next Tuesday. There's just a seemingly large percentage of them that seem to be absorbed in their own little worlds of ignorance.

The best one I've had so far is the person with iPhone (and I have one too) who thought he'd be clever and claim that 'it wasn't advertised on TfL's website', yielding the said device and waving the webpage at me. I loaded up the same page on my iPhone, and then scrolled down to where he hadn't – that information he'd not bothered to read was the one to prove him wrong. I sighed.

Claim all the 'passenger bashing' you want, the fact of the matter is that until you stand in our shoes, you never really know what it's like. I've gotten to the point now where I'm so frank with everybody – "How long do you reckon it's going to take me to get to Uxbridge?" "Well, I've just come from out that way and today it has taken me 90 minutes on the Tube plus a 30 minute boat ride from Waterloo." I'd sooner be honest than lie about how the replacement bus is going to take 20 minutes to get to Stratford.

[Deleted]

Well, the wait may be over...
A limited revenue service is scheduled to operate using TBTC on Sat 14th/Sunday 15th Aug
Waterloo to Stratford.
At least that is the latest plan and could change at any time between now and then.

[Deleted]

In the other news, hell just froze...

[version3point1]

Loving the sketchy plans I saw in the latest issue of the Traffic Circular this morning... running in passenger service...

I'll give TBTC its dues – when it's working okay, it's okay. I've got my niggles with it – that the mighty Line Manager himself has not directly answered when questioned – but when it's going wrong, it's worse than things get when things go wrong anyway.

Passenger-wise, they wont really know the difference. Apart from new sparkly lights that will be in action. And our Blue Peter job of covering up the existing signals.

[mrfs42]

Aug 6, 2010 21:35:12 GMT version3point1 said:

I'll give TBTC its dues – when it's working okay, it's okay. I've got my niggles with it – that the mighty Line Manager himself has not directly answered when questioned – but when it's going wrong, it's worse than things get when things go wrong anyway.

Well.... It's physical aspect-free innit? What do you expect? BMBs everywhere?

[Deleted]

Yet another change to next weekend...
The split revenue service i.e TBTC SFD-WLO and normal tripcock working CHX-STA is altered to TBTC SFD-WLO only both sat/sun 14th/15th Aug.
That said theres still a week for that to change, will post when final plan is known.

[Deleted]

Boo!
Why??

[Deleted]

I think you will find Its due to not having enough TBTC familiaised Train operators at the East end to run the revenue service all day.
If you shut the whole line down then you get the Wembley T/ops that are also au fait with the system and hey presto you have a service.
Everyone has done the training but not everybody has played with the new kit yet!

[harlesden]

Supposedly a normal service on the Jubilee this fine sunny Sunday morning.

[Deleted]

Don't forget that when this system is finally considered reliable enough to go into public service, it will be a further 2 or 3 years before it's anything like stable. Jubilee Line users have years of disruption ahead of them. I avoid it like the plague now but that's only possible since the ELL overground opened

[Tomcakes]

Aug 7, 2010 22:12:26 GMT @southernrover said:

I think you will find Its due to not having enough TBTC familiaised Train operators at the East end to run the revenue service all day.
If you shut the whole line down then you get the Wembley T/ops that are also au fait with the system and hey presto you have a service.
Everyone has done the training but not everybody has played with the new kit yet!

Couldn't the non-TBTC familiarised drivers be used to run the Charing Cross to Stanmore section?

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2010 12:50:33 GMT Tomcakes said:

Couldn't the non-TBTC familiarised drivers be used to run the Charing Cross to Stanmore section?

I think that would require some commonsense planning and organisation, which given the history of the Jubilee upgrade is something that would be most unlikely. After all, here we are what, 12 months behind target date, and we apparently STILL do not have enough qualified drivers for the new system.

Notable that this weekend, with the London Triathlon in full progress at the east end of the line, there was no disruption to the Jubilee service, when journalists might be wanting to travel out to the Royal Docks. Reading the posts above makes us wonder what is in store in the weekends to come. We are off to Heathrow for our holiday in a couple of weekends time. I think I'll book that taxi now.