Programme Machines

[Deleted]

Where programme machines are used, how do they cope with 'out of turn running', a stalled train, for instance? Do they have to be overidden for the slightest disruption in the service and how are they put back into action once the service is running normally.

I've always wondered how they cope on a system so large that out of turn running is inevitable

[Deleted]

You can overide the machine at a flik of a switch, i cant find my OPT folder at the moment, when i do, i shall type a paragraph out for you as it explains it quite well (!)

[Deleted]

the modes are:

1 programme only
2 first come first serve
3 push button

programme only is where the machine will only work to the timtable i.e right t/d,train number,right time

first come first serve (FCFS) is where lets say you have to trains arrive at a junction who ever got there first wins the route and wotever the t/d of the train is it will set up the route accordily

push button is where the signalman as to manually push the route through

then u have commands like

train cancel
no out of turn
extra train

if they extra train the machine does not step forward
if they select no out of turn (NOOT) it does exactly what it says
if they select train cancel then the machine will cancel down a step

but some places like earls court have one off modes i.e if the olmypia line say as only train 151 running it will auto cancel off 152

[Harsig]

aetearlscourt said:

the modes are:

1 programme only
2 first come first serve
3 push button

programme only is where the machine will only work to the timtable i.e right t/d,train number,right time

first come first serve (FCFS) is where lets say you have to trains arrive at a junction who ever got there first wins the route and wotever the t/d of the train is it will set up the route accordily

push button is where the signalman as to manually push the route through

then u have commands like

train cancel
no out of turn
extra train

if they extra train the machine does not step forward
if they select no out of turn (NOOT) it does exactly what it says
if they select train cancel then the machine will cancel down a step

but some places like earls court have one off modes i.e if the olmypia line say as only train 151 running it will auto cancel off 152

You've missed out the normal Programme mode which is different from Programme only. This actually works like first come first served except that where a train is approaching a converging junction out of turn with one from another branch the route is not set straight away. Instead a warning is generated for the signalman and he can step in to prevent the train from being routed out of turn by selecting 'No Out of Turn' If he does nothing then the train will be routed after (I believe) 60 seconds.

[Deleted]

i knew i forgot one ;D ;D ;D

also at tower hill if the w/b machine is in FCFS and a train is in the bay road dont matter if a train comes through from aldgate east after 2 mins it will route the train out of the bay road

[Deleted]

but getting back to the question though the machines are usually in FCFS if the service is up the wall only time i know for them to be in programme mode is first and last thing of the day

[Colin]

Good question David5032, I must admit I had pondered that myself, but hadn't really thought to ask.

[Harsig]

To elaborate on this subject a bit.

The method that programme machines use to cope with out of turn working depends on whether it is controlling a converging or diverging junction and also what mode it is in.

Diverging Junction.

Programme Machine Mode

A comparison is made between the received Train Description(TD) and that the programme machine is expecting. If they are the same then it can be assumed that the service is in step with the programme machine and the data on the programme machine roll can be used to route the train. If however they are not the same an 'OUT OF AGREEMENT' warning is sent to the signalman and he has one minute to step in and take action if necessary before the route appropriate to the received TD will clear automatically. If the signalman wishes to the route to be cleared earlier than 60 seconds according to the received TD he can put the programme machine in to First Come First Served mode. Alternatively if he believes the received TD is incorrect he can press the Programme Machine Acknowledge Key and the train will be routed according to the information on the programme machine roll. If no TD is received for the train the a 'NO DESCRIPTION' warning is sent to the signalman instead of an 'OUT OF AGREEMENT' warning.

Programme Machine Only.

In this mode trains are routed according to the information on the programme machine roll and no reference is made to the incoming TD. For diverging junctions this mode is likely only to be used in the event of a train describer failure where the service is running in timetable order. No 'OUT OF AGREEMENT' warnings will be sent to the signalman when this mode is being used.

First Come First Served

Trains are routed entirely according to the incoming TD without reference to the programme machine. No 'OUT OF AGREEMENT' warnings will be sent to the signalman when this mode is being used.

Push Button Mode

The signalman sets the route.

Trailing Junction

Programme Machine Mode

The main object of controlling a converging junction is to send the trains forward in the timetable sequence. The programme machine deals with this situation by allowing a train from one fork of the junction if the machine was waiting for a train from that direction. If
however a train approaches from a different direction a comparison is made between the time that the train that the machine was expecting was due and the current time. If this time has been reached then an 'OUT OF TURN warning is given to the signalman so that he may intervene. He can do this by either putting the programme machine in First Come First Served allowing the approaching train to be routed straight away or he can push the NO OUT OF TURN button and this will prevent the approaching train from routing out of turn. Alternatively the programme machine can be placed on Programme Only mode and this will also prevent the approaching train from routing out of turn.
If no action is taken the train will be routed out of turn after one minute. As soon as one train has been allowed out of turn subsequent trains will be routed out of turn without waiting for one minute each time.

Programme Machine Only

Trains will be routed through in timetable sequence only. No 'OUT OF TURN' warnings will be sent to the signalman when this mode is being used.


First Come First Served.

Trains are routed according to whichever reaches the junction first. No 'OUT OF TURN' warnings will be sent to the signalman when this mode is being used.

Push Button

The signalman sets the route.

Keeping the programme Machine In Step

Each time a train is routed through a junction the programme machine steps forward to the next train provided that the train takes or comes from the route detailed on the programme machine. If however the train takes or comes from an alternative route. the programme machine will not step forward but will remain standing on the train it was expecting next. Instead a STORAGE is generated that a train has taken a particular route. Each subsequent train that takes or comes from the alternative route increases the STORAGE count. When the train that the machine is waiting on finally arrives the machine steps forward and if the next train on the programme machine roll is scheduled to take or come from the alternative route the programme machine steps again and the STORAGE count is reduced by one. The machine continues stepping forward until either the STORAGE count is zero or the programme machine reaches another train that is due to take the same route as the previous train that the machine had been waiting for.

Extra Trains.

Where a train not in the timetable is due to run, the signalman will enter the number of the train that the extra train will follow (not the number of the extra train itself) and push the extra train button. When the programme machine reaches the train number entered and the train is routed the machine will not step forward. It will only step forward when the extra train runs and in this way stays in step with the train service.
There is also an IMMEDIATE EXTRA TRAIN facility and this is achieved by entering the train number 000 (because the preceding train has already run) before pushing the extra train button. This prevents the programme machine stepping forward when the next movement takes place.


Cancelled Trains

When a train is cancelled the signalman enters the train number and presses the TRAIN CANCEL button. When the programme machine steps onto this train it steps forward straight away to the next train.

[Deleted]

we have a training guide on programme machines and it dont even say that in it how rubbish it is just instead telling how great the system is

i dont think so as when it goes wrong its a right bitch to fault find on it

if anyone would like to see the inside of the earls court programme machine room i have pictures so just message me

[russe]

[Converging Junction] If however a train approaches from a different direction a comparison is made between the time that the train that the machine was expecting was due and the current time.

On busy lines, that seems to imply some very tight timing. Given that delays to a single train can inevitably delay (and subsequently bunch) a string of others behind it, how does the system cope with them? Or in such circumstances do signallers merely say sod it and go for a string of 'OUT OF TURN' or FCFS moves?

Russ

P.S. Sorta changing subject, but when trains are held at stations (the modern PR speak to us punters is, er, 'regulating the service'), is the decision to regulate taken by a machine or a human?

[citysig]

RussE said:

P.S. Sorta changing subject, but when trains are held at stations (the modern PR speak to us punters is, er, 'regulating the service'), is the decision to regulate taken by a machine or a human?

Human. There are systems available which can do it for you, but they tend to delay everything and cause the service to run very late indeed. They tend to monitor the space between trains and regulate all trains to match that space. A later train then arrives so the system increases the gap between trains - even if there was only one late train to begin with.

The decision is made easier by the amount of information presented to you - either by telephone or on the diagram in front of you. Manager's and punters love it. Drivers are less keen for some reason when they are due off ;D

[Deleted]

citysig said:

Human. There are systems available which can do it for you, but they tend to delay everything and cause the service to run very late indeed. They tend to monitor the space between trains and regulate all trains to match that space. A later train then arrives so the system increases the gap between trains - even if there was only one late train to begin with.

That sounds like the headway circuits at Hyde Park Corner (PB) and Finsbury Park (VK) - apparently they're so thoroughly broken that turning them on will crucify the Picc service.

citysig said:

The decision is made easier by the amount of information presented to you - either by telephone or on the diagram in front of you. Manager's and punters love it. Drivers are less keen for some reason when they are due off ;D

Indeed

[Tom]

Met said:

You can overide the machine at a flik of a switch, i cant find my OPT folder at the moment, when i do, i shall type a paragraph out for you as it explains it quite well (!)

More than one:
Off, On, Select M/C, Select Mode, Off, On.

(Or at least that was how I was taught, around the same time as Harsig was learning the room )

[Colin]

aetearlscourt said:

if anyone would like to see the inside of the earls court programme machine room i have pictures so just message me

I would love to see some pictures, but I reckon you should put em here so we can all see what we're talking about.

Also, out of interest, what's the score when we run an all night service? I would assume that the programme rolls are not that long, so presumably for at least part of the night the signal operators actually have to earn their money?! ;D ;D

[igelkotten]

COLIN said:

I would love to see some pictures, but I reckon you should put em here so we can all see what we're talking about.

Also, out of interest, what's the score when we run an all night service? I would assume that the programme rolls are not that long, so presumably for at least part of the night the signal operators actually have to earn their money?! ;D ;D

As a side note, here in Stockholm, the weekday overnight shifts are considered some of the busier ones for the signallers.

This is due to all the engineering works and loco movements that take place at night, which have to be manually signalled, and often are subject to various special rules and restrictions, all requiring lots of human attention.

In contrast, an ordinary weekday service almost runs itself, apart from the peak hours, which can be a bit sweaty.

[Harsig]

COLIN said:

Also, out of interest, what's the score when we run an all night service? I would assume that the programme rolls are not that long, so presumably for at least part of the night the signal operators actually have to earn their money?! ;D ;D

On the contrary the standard programme machine roll should be long enough to carry the Monday to Friday Service, The Saturday service and the Sunday service. On Sunday to Thursday nights the roll is rewound to the beginning but on Friday and Saturday nights it is just allowed to continue. When a special timetable is in operation the roll is changed so for all night running it is simply a case of substituting the appropriate programme machine roll which need only be long enough to accomodate the equivalent of two days service instead of the normal three. This is one of the very few areas where programme machines have the advantage over the later computer systems such as those at Baker St. When the latter were designed it was taken for granted that there would always be a break in the service overnight ( at the time the last occasion an all night service operated on the underground had been the coronation of George VI in 1936 more than forty years previously) Consequently the system was designed to shut down briefly at around 3am at which time the system is reset and the next day's timetable is loaded. In practice because of the way the system handles this process the computers will stop routing trains at about 0245 and not restart until about 0330. During this time routes have to be cleared manually except that for two to three minutes at about 0300 even this facility is unavailable to the signalman. A further complication is that when computer routing becomes available once more at 0330 the system has lost track of the identities of all the trains in the area of control and so these must be renumbered by the signalman. And all because it was assumed that there would never be all night running simply because there hadn't been for over forty years.

[Harsig]

Igelkotten said:

As a side note, here in Stockholm, the weekday overnight shifts are considered some of the busier ones for the signallers.

This is due to all the engineering works and loco movements that take place at night, which have to be manually signalled, and often are subject to various special rules and restrictions, all requiring lots of human attention.

In contrast, an ordinary weekday service almost runs itself, apart from the peak hours, which can be a bit sweaty.

It is very similar for us signallers in London. Night turns, particularly the run up to close of traffic regularly require a level of concentration that is only matched at other times during service disruption. The vast majority of significant delays that are attributed to signal operator error occur in this period and of course are even more likely if the service is disrupted as well.
I regard Night turns as being totally different from other shifts because the focus for Service control staff shifts from providing the best possible train service for our customers to managing the transition from Traffic Hours to Engineering Hours and back again in the morning. The provision of the best possible service for customers has to take a back seat because of the safety implications of getting the transition between Traffic Hours and Engineering hours wrong.

[Deleted]

i would do but they quite big file sizes plus i havent got a clue on how to do it tried many times and always failed

the programme machine roll could in theroy be as long as it likes but if there was a too big of a service the roll would be too tight for the machine so it wouldn't be able to cope. plus the machines rewinds at 03:00 if they ran a all night service there would have to be a 15min break in the service to allow the machine to rewind. i dont think the people at TFL have relized that its just not as easy as they think

i can see metal mickey (the met guys know wot am on about here) going wrong a few times ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

hear goes please tell me if it works plus the camera i had at the time was just a 1.3 m pixel so picture quality not all that good


aetearlscourt.fotopic.net/c543630.html

[russe]

hear goes please tell me if it works

Works fine, Pat.

Russ

[Harsig]

aetearlscourt said:

the programme machine roll could in theroy be as long as it likes but if there was a too big of a service the roll would be too tight for the machine so it wouldn't be able to cope. plus the machines rewinds at 03:00 if they ran a all night service there would have to be a 15min break in the service to allow the machine to rewind. i dont think the people at TFL have relized that its just not as easy as they think

The documentation I have says that a programme machine roll can be up to 50 feet long and it is possible to accomodate 1,400 entries in that length. The same documentation suggests that if the programme machine has not reached the end of service position on the programme machine roll at 3am it will not rewind but simply continue operating as normal. Thus provided the programme machine roll has the continuous overnight service on it there is no reason it should not run. In this way one off all night running can be accomodated such as now seems to be a regular feature of New Year's Eve. More than one consecutive night of all night running might begin to run into the limitations of the system but in any case is unlikely to happen owing to other problems unrelated to signalling such as the inability to carry out track inspections in the tunnel areas while the service is running.

[Admin Team]

aetearlscourt said:

hear goes please tell me if it works plus the camera i had at the time was just a 1.3 m pixel so picture quality not all that good


aetearlscourt.fotopic.net/c543630.html

Interesting stuff - thanks for those Pat.

Oh, and it was nice to see too the less than perfect Picc line caught in action! ;D

[Deleted]

for it to rewind there has to be 3 conditions met

1 the rewind hole is punched
2 the right day
3 its 03:00

[Deleted]

District said:

Oh, and it was nice to see too the less than perfect Picc line caught in action! ;D

that was in 2004 the picture was taken from the picc t/o depot in the control room

[Deleted]

There are two large pieces of train describer and programme machine kit in the COPQ composite at Quainton Road - are they similar to the devices under discussion here?

(if they are, I have pics)

[Tom]

If we could see the pics I'd be able to take a better guess.

IIRC One of the Met SOMs is involved at Quainton, so they could well be.

[Tom]

District said:

Interesting stuff - thanks for those Pat.

Oh, and it was nice to see too the less than perfect Picc line caught in action! ;D

Thanks Pat, all those memories of P/Mcs on the Vic (and that little TO depot in Earls Court Tower) are coming back.

[Deleted]

Thanks to all who have answered my question on Programme machines so well.

BTW, what all those coloured boxes in the Programme Machine Room at ECT?

[Deleted]

they are the electronic cards which are basically ' AND ' & ' OR ' gates (electronic switches) each colour is a different type of card

Sites with electronic cards :
Tower Hill
Mansion House
Earl's Court
West Kensington/Olympia (site no longer works)

Sites with relay based circuitly
South Kensington
Gloucester Road
High St Kensington
Turnham Green
Hammersmith
Parson's Green (site no longer works)
Putney Bridge

when i have the time im gonna take a few snaps of the IMR's (Interlocking Machine Room) on the district and add it to my collection

[Tom]

I can't remember what the others do but a red card is an 'M' card, which is a pair of 'and' gates.