Auxiliary Red Aspects

[Tom]

theonekea said:

Is this due to the cabinet and track linkages with Network Rail?

No just because it's really old.

[Colin]

theonekea said:

colin said:

How much is a mars bar these days?

*blink*

IDGI.

Just me being sarcastic ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

BUMP.

I noticed today that RJB1/3 has got an auxiliary aspect too - but why? And what colour is it?

[Tom]

Why? Because main line trains use the signal - the very reason Aux aspects were provided.
I think it could be an aux yellow on repeaters, but don't quote me on it.

[Harsig]

All repeaters (except Fog Repeaters and Platform Repeaters) on the main lines between Harrow and Amersham were equipped with yellow auxiliary aspects. Of course because the signalling on this stretch is Multi-Aspect the only repeaters that actually exist are RJB1/3 & RJW1.

[Deleted]

tom said:

Why? Because main line trains use the signal - the very reason Aux aspects were provided.

True - it just seemed unexpected, that's all.

harsig said:

All repeaters (except Fog Repeaters and Platform Repeaters) on the main lines between Harrow and Amersham were equipped with yellow auxiliary aspects.

I presume that a similar arrangement is used then, with the RECR substituted by the HECR of the bottom yellow aspect?

harsig said:

Of course because the signalling on this stretch is Multi-Aspect the only repeaters that actually exist are RJB1/3 & RJW1.

And even then, they follow the same sequence too.

A quick check of Stanley Hall's book implies the following:

RJB1.3: single yellow
JB1: red

RJB1.3: double yellow
JB1: single yellow
JB3: red

RJB1.3: green
JB1: double yellow
JB3: yellow

Since the signal is in an MAS area, if the aux yellow was lit by the failure of the repeater, would the driver be expected to treat it as an MAS caution and expect to stop at JB1?

[Harsig]

theonekea said:

Since the signal is in an MAS area, if the aux yellow was lit by the failure of the repeater, would the driver be expected to treat it as an MAS caution and expect to stop at JB1?

Of course, since that is what a yellow aspect, no matter how displayed, means in MAS areas.

[Deleted]

harsig said:

theonekea said:

Since the signal is in an MAS area, if the aux yellow was lit by the failure of the repeater, would the driver be expected to treat it as an MAS caution and expect to stop at JB1?

Of course, since that is what a yellow aspect, no matter how displayed, means in MAS areas.

Thanks. Just making sure all my signals are in a row

Is it true that the aux aspects have a separate power supply, and that the failure of this supply was the primary impetus for decommisioning them?

[Tom]

theonekea said:

Is it true that the aux aspects have a separate power supply, and that the failure of this supply was the primary impetus for decommisioning them?

More likely the lack of spares for them. They were 6v flag cells mostly, which were needed more urgently for other functions including programme machines.

[Deleted]

tom said:

theonekea said:

Is it true that the aux aspects have a separate power supply, and that the failure of this supply was the primary impetus for decommisioning them?

More likely the lack of spares for them. They were 6v flag cells mostly, which were needed more urgently for other functions including programme machines.

Why does this remind me of the stories regarding the 12v car batteries getting stolen from tube stock for running buses? ;D ;D ;D

[zcap]

Hey all, been a while. Hope youre all doing well.

Had to take a Met up to Croxley today and I noticed that on the Fast lines, some of the signal heads had what appeared to be a smaller, well shrouded, fifth aspect below the main signal head. I remember that the Watford DC lines had calling on aspects and these sort of reminded me of those.

I guess my question is, what are those fifth aspects and are they still used or usable?

Thanks!

[programmes1]

I think you will find that is the auxiliary aspect no longer used but I'm sure one of the experts will confirm and give more detail.

[zcap]

Apr 30, 2021 10:21:51 GMT programmes1 said:

I think you will find that is the auxiliary aspect no longer used but I'm sure one of the experts will confirm and give more detail.

Sweet, thanks. Any clue what it was used for?

[Dstock7080]

Apr 30, 2021 10:21:51 GMT programmes1 said:

I think you will find that is the auxiliary aspect no longer used but I'm sure one of the experts will confirm and give more detail.

specifically auxiliary red aspect

[tut]

Apr 30, 2021 13:50:31 GMT zcap said:

Apr 30, 2021 10:21:51 GMT programmes1 said:

I think you will find that is the auxiliary aspect no longer used but I'm sure one of the experts will confirm and give more detail.

Sweet, thanks. Any clue what it was used for?

In the event of a lamp failure of the red or single yellow aspect of a signal the auxiliary aspect would illuminate red.

A signal displaying an auxiliary red aspect was required to be treated as a signal at danger.

[jimbo]

When do these auxiliary aspects date from? And when / why was their use abandoned? Were they interlocked with the train stops?

[Dstock7080]

May 1, 2021 5:01:22 GMT jimbo said:

When do these auxiliary aspects date from? And when / why was their use abandoned? Were they interlocked with the train stops?

Our own Harsig excellent signalling pages show they were present at the MET 4-tracking 1962: Metropolitan Line

[tut]

May 1, 2021 7:19:08 GMT Dstock7080 said:

May 1, 2021 5:01:22 GMT jimbo said:

When do these auxiliary aspects date from? And when / why was their use abandoned? Were they interlocked with the train stops?

Our own Harsig excellent signalling pages show they were present at the MET 4-tracking 1962: Metropolitan Line

As far as I know that's when they went in. They were also installed to and north of Rickmansworth with the conversion to colour light signalling. Interestingly RJW1 at Amersham (repeating signal for the southbound home signal from Aylesbury (BR)) was provided with an auxiliary yellow light. The distants at Chesham and Chalfont & Latimer were similarly equipped.

[metman]

I believe most of these have been decommissioned.

[jimbo]

When / why were they decommissioned? Was the trainstop linked to these? Has anyone a photo of what we are talking about?

[Dstock7080]

May 1, 2021 23:00:47 GMT jimbo said:

When / why were they decommissioned? Was the trainstop linked to these? Has anyone a photo of what we are talking about?

There was a previous discussion on this very subject:
(threads now merged)
districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/1472/auxiliary-red-aspects?page=1

An archive LURS Underground News;
www.lurs.org.uk/UN203%2003%20NOV%201978.pdf

even if a red aspect fails the trainstop will be up

[jimbo]

I can't recall mention of these aspects when I worked out on the Met, and I wonder if they had been discontinued by then. I didn't recall Chiltern route trains operating without tripcocks, which seems to be the reason for these aspects, since trainstops would stop LU trains in such failure conditions. Perhaps they were discontinued when all NR trains operating on the route were required to be tripcock fitted, so when was that? Can anyone help?

[rincew1nd]

Does anyone have a picture of these things?

[Dstock7080]

May 2, 2021 16:09:34 GMT rincew1nd said:

Does anyone have a picture of these things?

©LURS/Brian Hardy

UndergrounD News 203 November 1978: 

Q. In LT, multiple-aspect signalling areas (Harrow and north thereof), there appears to be a single light auxiliary signal beneath the main three or four aspects. What is the function of this, and when illuminated, what does it mean to a driver?

A. On the ex.Met & GC line north of Harrow where LT electric and BR diesel trains use the same tracks, some extra precaution must be taken to provide continuous signalling for BR trains, should either a red aspect lamp or the signal main supply fail. This precaution is not necessary normally on LT, railways since if the signal main supply fails, all trainstops will correspondingly fail in the 'up' or 'on' position, the system being 'fail safe'. Similarly, even if a signal red aspect fails, the trainstop will be in the raised position and any train attempting to pass that signal will be 'Tripped' BR diesel multiple units are not however fitted with tripcocks and hence the auxiliary aspect which shows red when illuminated, is arranged to come on automatically should either the main red (or yellow) aspect fail, or, in a number of cases, should the signal main supply fail. In the latter case the auxiliary aspect is fed from an emergency supply. All drivers are instructed that any signal at which this auxiliary aspect is illuminated, must be treated as being at danger, no matter what the circumstances, and by this means, BR drivers are always shown an aspect at a signal which is at danger, even i f the main aspect fails.

[rincew1nd]

Thanks, I see what the earlier poster means by "heavily hooded".

[jimbo]

That photo is not in the online Underground News! Thanks. I would not have seen that as an auxiliary signal aspect. I always assumed they were A signs which illuminated when the signal box was unoccupied, and the signal was working automatically. My memory is still not jogged, so I believe these were not part of Met staff training around the time of the Underground News item. But I could be getting old!

[Dstock7080]

May 3, 2021 4:40:32 GMT jimbo said:

That photo is not in the online Underground News! Thanks.

My memory is still not jogged, so I believe these were not part of Met staff training around the time of the Underground News item. But I could be getting old!

I eventually found it here:
www.lurs.org.uk/UN206%20FEB%201979.pdf

I can remember being told about them before being posted to Rayners Lane and Harrow cabins, but like you my memory faded over time so I didn’t contribute to this thread until I could find the evidence!

[zcap]

May 2, 2021 16:47:37 GMT Dstock7080 said:

May 2, 2021 16:09:34 GMT rincew1nd said:

Does anyone have a picture of these things?

©LURS/Brian Hardy

UndergrounD News 203 November 1978: 

Q. In LT, multiple-aspect signalling areas (Harrow and north thereof), there appears to be a single light auxiliary signal beneath the main three or four aspects. What is the function of this, and when illuminated, what does it mean to a driver?

A. On the ex.Met & GC line north of Harrow where LT electric and BR diesel trains use the same tracks, some extra precaution must be taken to provide continuous signalling for BR trains, should either a red aspect lamp or the signal main supply fail. This precaution is not necessary normally on LT, railways since if the signal main supply fails, all trainstops will correspondingly fail in the 'up' or 'on' position, the system being 'fail safe'. Similarly, even if a signal red aspect fails, the trainstop will be in the raised position and any train attempting to pass that signal will be 'Tripped' BR diesel multiple units are not however fitted with tripcocks and hence the auxiliary aspect which shows red when illuminated, is arranged to come on automatically should either the main red (or yellow) aspect fail, or, in a number of cases, should the signal main supply fail. In the latter case the auxiliary aspect is fed from an emergency supply. All drivers are instructed that any signal at which this auxiliary aspect is illuminated, must be treated as being at danger, no matter what the circumstances, and by this means, BR drivers are always shown an aspect at a signal which is at danger, even i f the main aspect fails.

Well that explains why they're only fitted on the fast lines! Wonderful, well, thanks everyone for this wealth of information. And sorry for the thread duplication!

[MoreToJack]

May 4, 2021 21:28:38 GMT zcap said:

Well that explains why they're only fitted on the fast lines! Wonderful, well, thanks everyone for this wealth of information. And sorry for the thread duplication!

Being pedantic, they’re only on the main lines. The fast lines are those south of Harrow.

[zcap]

May 5, 2021 12:44:17 GMT MoreToJack said:

May 4, 2021 21:28:38 GMT zcap said:

Well that explains why they're only fitted on the fast lines! Wonderful, well, thanks everyone for this wealth of information. And sorry for the thread duplication!

Being pedantic, they’re only on the main lines. The fast lines are those south of Harrow.

Nothing wrong with a bit of pedantry.
I didnt know that actually, I just assumed it was fast lines straight up to Watford South junction (I *think* that is the junctions' name, please correct me if I am wrong!)