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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 19:15:09 GMT
Could anybody provide a list of ATP speed limits between WER and Perivale?
And does anybody know how fast speed limits decrease when approaching the train ahead?
Why am I asking these questions? Well you may have seen the Central Line route for OpenBve. I've looked through the route and am implementing ATP software into the route. So any help is appreciated!
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Post by auxsetreq on Jun 30, 2011 16:00:52 GMT
A rough guide depending on location - 100 / 65 / 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 21:09:42 GMT
I thought 100kph was disabled now?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 21:10:23 GMT
100kph can be achieved in CM.
The target speed is 100kph, but the train will only drive it to 80kph or whatever it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 21:11:41 GMT
Ohh right
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Post by superteacher on Jul 2, 2011 18:42:58 GMT
100 kph driving would be frowned upon, me thinks! However, at least once in the last couple of years, I have been on a 92 stock that was doing 100 kph. You can really feel the speed (and vibration!!)
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Post by plasmid on Jul 3, 2011 20:24:46 GMT
I'm guessing you would get an eyebrow from The Rock if you were to go over 85kph unless you were given the all clear from Control due to late running...is that even allowed?
Vibration...one would think so...how about now with the new bogies which aren't cracked?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 3, 2011 20:31:50 GMT
I'm guessing you would get an eyebrow from The Rock if you were to go over 85kph unless you were given the all clear from Control due to late running...is that even allowed? Vibration...one would think so...how about now with the new bogies which aren't cracked? Anything over 85kph is not allowed. Vibration was, in part, one of the causes for the Chancery Lane accident. The vibration becomes very noticeable over 85kph, so I'm guessing it's totally prohibited. |
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Post by auxsetreq on Jul 4, 2011 8:08:55 GMT
The vibration comes from flats on the motor commutators. Mostly noticeable in the middling speeds at around 20 - 40 kph. The 85 is still in on account that not all the bogies have been replaced, bad track conditions, and motor flash-overs which still occur due to the commutator problems. That's what I've noticed and that's what I have been told.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 22:25:28 GMT
I won't mention dates etc. But I can tell you that I have seen a true 60.7mph between Northolt and Perivale - train definitely being driven in coded manual at the time. I am told reliably that the coded display allows upto 110kph and that the 92's can happily attain that on longer stretches in Cm. Fastest speed recorded in other direction was 56mph in ATO mode. Acceleration from rest in coded manual as follows, 0-30mph took just 15 secs, 0-40 in 27 sec, 0-50 in 40 sec, and 60 in just under 59 secs. Apparently max acceleration is not available in coded manual.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 7:20:45 GMT
Can you recommend a good gps unit to record speeds?
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 26, 2011 7:26:44 GMT
0-30 mph in 15 seconds is very good for a train manually driven. My old phone had GPS and I recorded 53mph from West Ruslip and Hanger lane. I can't understand how it is slower in CM mode maybe the driver did not give the traction brake controller a good push forward. ATO is designed to be faster and more agressive than an averge driver. I would say the 1992 stock is the quickest off the mark out of all the tube trains.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 8:36:53 GMT
0-30 mph in 15 seconds is very good for a train manually driven. My old phone had GPS and I recorded 53mph from West Ruslip and Hanger lane. I can't understand how it is slower in CM mode maybe the driver did not give the traction brake controller a good push forward. ATO is designed to be faster and more agressive than an averge driver. I would say the 1992 stock is the quickest off the mark out of all the tube trains. Power is restricted in CM. |
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 26, 2011 10:35:14 GMT
Why is it restricted in CM mode?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 10:50:02 GMT
Probably because they trust the computer to drive at full power in ATO but not the driver.
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 26, 2011 11:51:11 GMT
I see but is it painfully slow in CM off the mark or is it still pritty fast if you give the handle a good whack forward?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 12:47:27 GMT
I'm not a driver but it's all done by the software so it doesn't matter how the handle is pushed. They do the same to London buses too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2011 6:06:52 GMT
I'm guessing you would get an eyebrow from The Rock if you were to go over 85kph unless you were given the all clear from Control due to late running...is that even allowed? 85kph is the limit. If you went up to 100kph you’d be dragged off the train at the earliest opportunity and probably end up checking Oyster Cards at a ticket barrier or signing on the dole. If a Line Controller told you to go above 85kph they’d be right next to you. I see but is it painfully slow in CM off the mark or is it still pritty fast if you give the handle a good whack forward? There's no noticeable difference in acceleration with ATO and CM with the TBC full out. The main difference is that ATO will use full braking while us humans tend to brake less and earlier. You won’t get ATO rolling up to a red signal in the hope that it’s going to change, it will just rush up to it and then stop. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2011 22:15:57 GMT
Which is actually more efficient? Rolling up to a danger aspect or just stopping and starting again?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2011 5:15:36 GMT
Which is actually more efficient? Rolling up to a danger aspect or just stopping and starting again? Depends what you mean by efficient, time or energy-wise. ATO can't "coast", it either motors or brakes so while it's in motion. |
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 29, 2011 8:24:27 GMT
Why does ATO roll up to Danger signals at speed? Also sometimes when you are too close to the train ahead then you stop outside the station the train just belts into the station on full power then brakes at the very last second! The same applies to the victoria line but their ATO system is not as aggessive as the Centrals.
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Post by londonstuff on Oct 29, 2011 9:28:26 GMT
If you're not a driver and so can't see ahead of you how can you tell you are too close to the train in front? Are you part of engineering team that calculates safe braking distances between trains?  Why does ATO roll up to Danger signals at speed? Also sometimes when you are too close to the train ahead then you stop outside the station the train just belts into the station on full power then brakes at the very last second! The same applies to the victoria line but their ATO system is not as aggessive as the Centrals. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 29, 2011 10:44:06 GMT
ATO drives the train beyond the limits a human would not dare to go. It also drives the train according to the state of the section of track it is on.
Central line ATO in the most simple of terms:
ATO does not care what the next signal aspect is, nor where the next train is - all it it knows is the track it's on is either clear and thus it has codes to motor, or the piece of track it's on has no codes and thus it cannot motor (so it'll either brake to stop at the end of that section or stay where it is).
It is as simple as that.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 29, 2011 15:33:23 GMT
The Central line ATO will always drive the train as fast as possible until it receives a code telling it to do otherwise! Hence, if a train is held outside a station and then receives a proceed oode, it will accelerate at the maximum rate until it reaches the point where it needs to brake.
Central line trains on the eastbound at Liverpool Street always accelerate into the station until about half way along the platform.
As Colin says, it does things that a human probably wouldn't. A human would probably coast the train along the platform.
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Post by craig on Oct 29, 2011 16:05:19 GMT
As Colin says, it does things that a human probably wouldn't. A human would probably coast the train along the platform. Is the harsh accelerating and braking done by the ATO going to result in any long term damage to the train or were they built to withstand this? |
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 29, 2011 16:23:45 GMT
Just like a Car or a bus or anything motorized wear and tear is always going to occur.
It is going to cause damage to the motors pulling away on full power and braking I am sure it will. However the trains will get maintained so any parts which need replacing will just get done when the train is out of service. I am not sure if the 1992 stock can withstand the ATO driving however just look at the Chancery Lane derailment in 2003! I think the 2009 stock will withstand ATO driving better well hopefully!
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 29, 2011 16:26:25 GMT
Londonstuff- I am not a driver yet! Nor am I part of the engineering team but you can genrally tell if you are too close to the train ahead by the train going at a reduced speed unless there is some speed restriction.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2011 18:50:20 GMT
Londonstuff- I am not a driver yet! Nor am I part of the engineering team but you can genrally tell if you are too close to the train ahead by the train going at a reduced speed unless there is some speed restriction. You can *assume* you are following another train but because you as a passenger have no view of the track ahead, all you can do is make guesses. If I may conjecture about ATO and efficiency, I've been told for electric traction accelerating as quickly as possible to a predetermined speed then coasting to the next stop is most efficient but it's usually only possible on a clear track. If I was able to program the ATO I would insert a 'Coasting' subroutine which would be activated assuming the train was on schedule, wasn't holding anything up and the track was clear to the next station. |
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Post by londonstuff on Oct 29, 2011 19:57:17 GMT
Londonstuff- I am not a driver yet! Nor am I part of the engineering team but you can genrally tell if you are too close to the train ahead by the train going at a reduced speed unless there is some speed restriction. To assume; transitive verb. To make an ass out of u and me. As you rightly say, you're assuming, but you're doing it incorrectly. A train going at reduced speed could be for any number of factors from poor conditions of rails and points to innocuous reasons like running ahead of timetable. To say such sweeping and incorrect statements to a group of hugely knowledgable LU people on here like you've got some sort of authority or experience on the matter (you don't, you're 15) you risk making yourself look a bit silly. I'm sorry, I'm not being personal but the tone of that particular post wound me up the wrong way. Peace.  |
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 29, 2011 20:59:31 GMT
The "ATO" system is a bit more complicated than what we read here. Most of them can have coasting regimes. The ones the Victoria Line used to have were switched out. I don't know about the Central. Are the instructions in the PAC loops? [Edit] I knew there were coasting instructions available, see "ATO" here: www.davros.org/rail/signalling/articles/central.htmlI assume it's still the same today. Can anyone confirm? [/Edit] |
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