bombardier's derby works.

[Deleted]

We don't know how large the price difference is between the Bombardier and Siemens bids. If it's significant then I'm sure many wouldn't be arguing against paying more for what may be an inferior product.

What if Bombardier were banking on the political pressure being too high not to place the order with a British manufacturer? Surely we should be aiming for the lowest price in our current circumstances. Saying that we should back Bombardier purely because it is British would be infering that we should leave the EU and the single market. Perhaps the Hitachi IEP award was more questionable since Japan does have protectionist measures in place.

Maybe Bombardier should be asking why it didn't win the order. Then it can ask why it is not competitive enough for other parts of the EU to want Bombardier trains.

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2011 0:08:09 GMT slugabed said:

How true.
The last 32 years have left our economy lop-sided and vulnerable to fluctuations which are completely outwith our control.
Tomorrow,Bombadier could decide that manufacture is cheaper in (insert country of your choice) and there would be NO rail industry left in this country,and we would be entirely dependant upon imported goods...as has happened with (say) electrical goods.
The country for too long has been run by people who know the price of anything,but the value of nothing.

My sentiment exactly!

Jul 7, 2011 0:08:09 GMT slugabed said:

How true.
The last 32 years have left our economy lop-sided and vulnerable to fluctuations which are completely outwith our control.
Tomorrow,Bombadier could decide that manufacture is cheaper in (insert country of your choice) and there would be NO rail industry left in this country,and we would be entirely dependant upon imported goods...as has happened with (say) electrical goods.
The country for too long has been run by people who know the price of anything,but the value of nothing.

My sentiment exactly!

[Deleted]

Leaving the EU would be a bloody good idea, Rob

[Deleted]

The sooner David Cameron and his little butt buddy realise that, the better.
These governments have brought this country to it's knees. They're nothing more than vandals.

[Deleted]

The EU and its silly rules and regs are not helping the country at all. 'You must comply to this emmision standard' blah blah blah...

[Deleted]

The entire EU seems to be targeted at the needs of France and Germany, not UK. And lately it is also targeted at propping up failing corrupt Mediterranean economies/regimes.

[metrailway]

The fact is that the French and Germans ignore EU rules when it suits them. This is why 100% of French trains are made in France, thus protecting jobs.
John Major partly blamed privatisation of the railways on an EU directive. It seems to not apply to France. Open Access Operators are mandated by EU law, yet France has no Open Acess Operators as they want to protect, rightly, the state owned SNCF.
There have been numerous occasions where France has used every loophole to stop implementing EU law. Even if they got fined, they simply did not pay.
The EU is mainly beneficial to Britain, but we, like France and Germany don't need the EU to prosper. British politicians need to grow a backbone and stand up to EU so it is catered to our needs and not to the beauracrats in Brussels.

[railtechnician]

The real truth is that British industry has priced it self out of the market in so many ways over the years. I find it utterly ridiculous that it is cheaper to manufacture almost anywhere other than the UK and that, that includes shipping costs etc too. British workers are too highly paid and the whole UK economy has been over valued by idiots apparently calling themselves the government. 'Growth' is a misnomer which simply revalues everything upwards regularly so that those at the bottom of the heap can never escape the near poverty that they have become used to. Most people seem to live on credit nowadays, those in work get the same pay whether they are newbies to a job or seasoned veterans and everyone seems to want everything without having to earn it. There is little incentive for the average worker to work hard because there are no more pay scales to aim for, the only way to earn more being promotion. Above inflation price hikes serve no-one but the greedy and the incompetent and the UK has far too many of both. The country cannot survive as it has done in recent years by simply moving money around and devaluing it which simply makes the rich richer while everyone else suffers. I'm afraid the UK has become never never land, it is certainly not the rich country that the politicians continually talk up except for those who know how to fleece the system. British workers have not only themselves to blame for the loss of the manufacturing base, they were aided and abetted by greedy bosses, incompetent politicians and militant union leaders. The UK is a mess on so many levels and it is only going to get worse unless people start to get a grip and get real.

[Deleted]

There are two issues here. Bombardier were going to make 1200 people redundant regardless of winning Thameslink or not:

news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9530000/9530534.stm

When the recession started in 2008/2009, German manufacturers began talking to Unions about how to retain staffing numbers but reducing hours. In the end, the German government subsidised wages, not the difference between the part time and full time wage as this was cheaper than paying unemployment benefit. It meant workers could live until orders picked up and formed part of Germany labour policy. It was forward thinking flexible and dynamic. Then plants began working at full capacity, the German government removed the wage subsidy. So a reduced number of people were made unemployed, more people remained happy and now Germany is exporting huge quantities of quality goods all over the world. The problem is there's no trust between British Business and Unions which results in no compromise or maybe no discussion whatsoever. Compounded by a short sighted government (not having adequate labour policy) and Bombardier not being British but having a British plant, the situation deteriorates.

Many of these staff who will be made redundant were temps. The temps were brought in to increase production capacity short term. If several production lines are finishing, then there's noting more to do. Whether we should be encouraging the use of temps is another matter.

Do I think Electrostars are good products: YES
Do I think Desirios are good products: YES

Finally, Eurostar which is part owned by SNCF recently ordered Siemens products. The French government went bananas and challenged the decision in the courts (and failed), but French companies don't exclusively buy French if the price and product is right. In this case I genuinely believe Bombardier offered an inferior product based upon the tender requirements. If a product doesn't meet your requirements but another does to a better degree, I know which I'd go for.

[slugabed]

The difference between Germany and Britain (in this respect) is that in Britain the Government loathes the workers and unions,and fears the business leaders and the "market".And,yes,is capable only of thinking as far ahead as the next election (if you are very lucky!)
In Germany,although there are inevitable conflicts,there is,at least,the feeling that all parties are in the same boat and there is a tradition of "round-table" discussions when difficult decisions about a business are to be made.
Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry (despite being a high-wage economy),and we are reduced to importing paving-slabs from China because they are cheaper than making them at home.
Who's got the balance right,I wonder?