Warwick Avenue

[rincew1nd]

I know we don't normally do this on this forum (quiz board aside):

+1

Queens Park has to be my favourite tube station, where else but London UndergrounD can you travel on a train in passenger service through an operational car/carriage shed?

[Deleted]

Sept 11, 2014 18:01:59 GMT rincew1nd said:

I know we don't normally do this on this forum (quiz board aside):

+1

Queens Park has to be my favourite tube station, where else but London UndergrounD can you travel on a train in passenger service through an operational car/carriage shed?

Queens Park by DH73., on Flickr

[grahamhewett]

@rincewind1- Maybe Volks electric railway?

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2014 1:14:40 GMT Indefatigable said:

Warwick Avenue and Holland Park just got added to Olympia on my list of things to do!

Went there today, it is a bit of a relic

[Deleted]

Oooooh those are lovely I love the contrast with the old clock and the modern DMI.

[theblackferret]

Thanks for the photos-loved the timewarp on the signs (British Rail??)!

Character is the word.

[Chris M]

Sept 14, 2014 22:02:41 GMT tut said:

Oooooh those are lovely I love the contrast with the old clock and the modern DMI.

Which tell different times...

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2014 15:09:50 GMT Chris M said:

Sept 14, 2014 22:02:41 GMT tut said:

Oooooh those are lovely I love the contrast with the old clock and the modern DMI.

Which tell different times...

You're asking rather a lot there, aren't you? The clocks on those DMIs are always really fast anyway

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2014 10:46:51 GMT theblackferret said:

Thanks for the photos-loved the timewarp on the signs (British Rail??)!

Character is the word.

"Change for British Railways" must date it to pre 1964. I wonder if this is the original signage installed when the extensions were opened after the war. With a little thought they could have made this the Central Line's heritage station.
I find the modern signage has all the allure of a dentist's waiting room.

[theblackferret]

Sept 15, 2014 16:26:20 GMT @aliturk said:

Sept 15, 2014 10:46:51 GMT theblackferret said:

Thanks for the photos-loved the timewarp on the signs (British Rail??)!

Character is the word.

"Change for British Railways" must date it to pre 1964. I wonder if this is the original signage installed when the extensions were opened after the war. With a little thought they could have made this the Central Line's heritage station.
I find the modern signage has all the allure of a dentist's waiting room.

The 3rd of your photos looks original-not even the line coloured in, no interchange with anybody painted on, either. British Railways began 1-1-1948, and the enabling Act was dated 1947, which is when this CL extension started opening. So they may not have known exactly which entity they would be connecting with, or the Bill hadn't passed its' third reading in the House yet.

The 5th is also a possibility; could be from 1948, not forgetting CL didn't reach Ruislip until 30.6.1948, but even if it is '48 & not '47, it's still an amazing artefact-to me, the clue is the red arrow pointing to West Ruislip; I've definitely seen that exact design on public hand-outs about the extension from Leytonstone to Epping coming into service, and that was on 25.9.1949, so it's very much the right era.

The modern signage is sometimes too cluttered, as well as being dreary. Neither form nor function is being served as well as in the past, what a surprise

As for the Heritage station, Holland Park also has something it shares only with Queensway which makes it the best choice-it retains its' original Harry Bell Measures' frontage.

[Deleted]

Certainly there seems to have been a design refresh as the Westbound line plan is different, from the rest. But the refresh must have been pre 1964 as I'm sure that's when British Railways changed its name to British Rail. I'm struggling to find
much info on signage, though I expect there are books that explain it.

[norbitonflyer]

Sept 15, 2014 18:59:59 GMT @aliturk said:

But the refresh must have been pre 1964 as I'm sure that's when British Railways changed its name to British Rail. .

(1965 according to Wikipedia, but its legal name (as distinct from trading style) remained the British Railways Board right to the end. Not sure everyone started using the name straight away - just as some people still refer to London Transport.

Note that the westbound sign at Holland Park says "British Railways" but the eastbound says "British Rail"

[rsdworker]

in one picture - i saw old Docklands logo and even waterloo city line was Britsh rsil (this now London underground) and new sticker for jubbiee line at straford station - i think holland park needs upgrade with modern equipment and new signages to make DDA compliant - for vision imparired

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2014 3:57:42 GMT rsdworker said:

in one picture - i saw old Docklands logo and even waterloo city line was Britsh rsil (this now London underground) and new sticker for jubbiee line at straford station - i think holland park needs upgrade with modern equipment and new signages to make DDA compliant - for vision imparired

Leave Holland Park alone! Its lovely the way it is

[Deleted]

Dear All,

Sorry for posting my question here but the related topic seems to be closed.
-Could anyone tell me why are there 4 rails from Queen's park to Kilburn High Road as it would be an underground track (the train line to Euston)?
Rusty 4th rail, doesn't look active and in use...

I was always curious about it but I still don't know.
-Thanks.

[Deleted]

This allows a south to north reversing move using the crossover to the north of Kilburn High Road, which the early morning sleet trains are booked to use when they run.

I suspect more details and the historical reason for this may be forthcoming.

You are at liberty to request the mods to reopen a locked thread for you if you have something to add, or you can start a new one

[whistlekiller2000]

Sept 23, 2014 15:02:29 GMT @dynax5 said:

Dear All,

Sorry for posting my question here but the related topic seems to be closed.
-Could anyone tell me why are there 4 rails from Queen's park to Kilburn High Road as it would be an underground track (the train line to Euston)?
Rusty 4th rail, doesn't look active and in use...

I was always curious about it but I still don't know.
-Thanks.

Kilburn High Road is occasionally used for reversing Bakerloo line trains during engineering closures south of Queens Park.

Heres a picture of such an occasion:

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot - especially for the picture - I never expected such a quick reply!
Under what circumstances it needed to pull up to Kilburn H. R. instead of reversing at Queens park (the seems to be easier)?

Are passengers allowed to use the trains until Kilburn High Road or "all change please" at Q.P.?

I guess you overdiscussed this already but long time ago when I used this service daily base, it would have been useful to go till Euston by Bakerloo.
Any plan to do it or Silverlink only is more than enough?

Thanks

[whistlekiller2000]

If there is a possession of the middle two tracks at Queens Park station or beyond the next available crossover on the Bakerloo line wherever that is, then the Bakerloo line trains use the Overground platforms (the two outside tracks) to de train the passengers. The only crossover then available to go back north (or west, whatever it is) is at Kilburn High Road. This is always done empty.

Silverlink finished years ago now. Their old services are now part of the London Overground.

[norbitonflyer]

Officially north, although in reality south west. (Noticed on Carto Metro that the "South Shed" at the Euston end of the station is actually further north than the "North Shed" at the country end (which is the one you can ride through)

[Deleted]

Sept 24, 2014 7:32:39 GMT whistlekiller2000 said:

If there is a possession of the middle two tracks at Queens Park station or beyond the next available crossover on the Bakerloo line wherever that is, then the Bakerloo line trains use the Overground platforms (the two outside tracks) to de train the passengers. The only crossover then available to go back north (or west, whatever it is) is at Kilburn High Road. This is always done empty.

Silverlink finished years ago now. Their old services are now part of the London Overground.

There are two crossovers to the south of Queen's Park, which I suppose are the next available crossovers on the Bakerloo line.

If these can't be used, I think it is still possible to reverse south to north at Queen's Park via the north shed, though it'd be a bit of a faff and would probably have to involve stepping back if it were to be done during planned works. Kilburn High Road I suppose might be used instead or as well but I think most likely it would be used where, as you suggest, the possession is of the two Bakerloo line tracks through the station and/or if it's of the North Shed roads.

[Deleted]

Reversing via Kilburn High Road is actually done reasonably regularly, especially when there is some kind of trouble 'in the pipe', as last Friday for example when there was a multiple signal failure on the approach to Piccadilly Circus. Though reformation of a train is more often used, trains that are running horribly late at night can also be reversed at KHR, though this really only applies to Stonebridge stablers. There is also a booked daily training move via KHR in the evening on Elephant duty 32. I'd have to look up the exact time but if there is no trainee around the train normally just goes straight into Stonebridge.
In regards to other ways of reversing South-North at Queen's Park, the only other realistic option is to detrain on Platform 2 and go into the South Sheds:-
1) Because there is no capability using the crossovers south of QPK to effect a shunt move - no signalling and therefore no Limit Of Shunt board - from South-North and
2) Using the North Sheds would involve the Driver changing ends three times.
However, even the South Sheds move takes a fair time to perform (given the short distance covered) because it is all governed, in and out, by a heavy duty 5mph restriction. Ultimately though, reversing via Kilburn Hiqh Road wins out because the move doesn't interfere with other trains entering the middle platforms from the pipe and reversing via the North Sheds; in effect the trains are looping around Queen's Park from Platform 1 to 4. This is what happens when a 'Special Service' is introduced following a major hold-up - usually 16 trains in the tunnel and 3 on a QPK-Harrow shuttle.
PS I seem to recall a very senior Driver once saying that there used to be a crossover to the north (well, west actually!) of the North Sheds too that was removed many years ago but I'd have to reconfirm that when I see him next. Hope this all helps.

[whistlekiller2000]

Sept 25, 2014 0:48:00 GMT @millwall01 said:

Reversing via Kilburn High Road is actually done reasonably regularly, especially when there is some kind of trouble 'in the pipe', as last Friday for example when there was a multiple signal failure on the approach to Piccadilly Circus. Though reformation of a train is more often used, trains that are running horribly late at night can also be reversed at KHR, though this really only applies to Stonebridge stablers. There is also a booked daily training move via KHR in the evening on Elephant duty 32. I'd have to look up the exact time but if there is no trainee around the train normally just goes straight into Stonebridge.
In regards to other ways of reversing South-North at Queen's Park, the only other realistic option is to detrain on Platform 2 and go into the South Sheds:-
1) Because there is no capability using the crossovers south of QPK to effect a shunt move - no signalling and therefore no Limit Of Shunt board - from South-North and
2) Using the North Sheds would involve the Driver changing ends three times.
However, even the South Sheds move takes a fair time to perform (given the short distance covered) because it is all governed, in and out, by a heavy duty 5mph restriction. Ultimately though, reversing via Kilburn Hiqh Road wins out because the move doesn't interfere with other trains entering the middle platforms from the pipe and reversing via the North Sheds; in effect the trains are looping around Queen's Park from Platform 1 to 4. This is what happens when a 'Special Service' is introduced following a major hold-up - usually 16 trains in the tunnel and 3 on a QPK-Harrow shuttle.
PS I seem to recall a very senior Driver once saying that there used to be a crossover to the north (well, west actually!) of the North Sheds too that was removed many years ago but I'd have to reconfirm that when I see him next. Hope this all helps.

In an earlier life I occasionally used the Bakerloo Line in that area for work. In the year or so I did the journey I recall 5 or 6 occasions when we were slung out on the (then) NR platforms going south as the train headed off to Kilburn High Road. As for the reasons, at the time I neither found out or really cared as I was more interested in getting home. However I do remember one time when the diversion was caused by a train broken down southbound in the middle platforms. Of course, the trains were mostly 38TS in those days.....far more dignified, even when crocked!

The Starlight Express tour of 1985 was a rare chance to travel to Kilburn High Road on a tube train. I've dredged up these pictures from the web:





And here's a video of the same, and some even more unusual locations....

[bassmike]

There used to be a cross-over south of KHR with 4 rail and bakerloo trains would reverse over this and use the NB platform road back to QP. I think the Starlite express made this move (I was on it) The NB platform still appears to have a 4thg rail, but this would never feel a shoe nowadays.

[Deleted]

Woww, what an old school video!
Is that crossover the traing goes thru at 2:22 the one under the road/roof(?) at Kil.Hi.Road or this one here in the middle:
link

[whistlekiller2000]

Sept 25, 2014 12:53:15 GMT @dynax5 said:

Woww, what an old school video!
Is that crossover the traing goes thru at 2:22 the one under the road/roof(?) at Kil.Hi.Road or this one here in the middle:
link

It's the one (now removed I believe) under Kilburn Priory to the North East of Kilburn High Road Station. So in the video, the train pulls into the Euston bound platform then proceeds a little further past the crossover and then shunts back into the Queens Park bound platform. I would assume from what Mike has said that nowadays it reverses out of the Euston bound platform and uses the crossover you've identified further West to return to the correct tracks.

edit: In this view looking towards Euston it's clear that the crossover has been removed under Kilburn Priory.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2014 0:48:00 GMT @millwall01 said:

This is what happens when a 'Special Service' is introduced following a major hold-up - usually 16 trains in the tunnel and 3 on a QPK-Harrow shuttle.

When this occurs, do the trains from the tunnel turn in the platforms, or do they still turn in the north shed?

[Deleted]

Almost always via the North Sheds, though if a train is running particularly late it can still be reversed off the platform.

[Deleted]

Is there any particular reason why it is seen as so desirable to reverse via the north sheds. Seems a bit of a hassle in some ways, though I suppose it avoids shepherding people from platform to platform and such.

[Deleted]

All down to time really. Detrainment, or 'checking' as is done now, with the train then tootling off to the North Sheds is still the best way to free up the platform and prevent the blocking back of trains behind. For sure it's not always as straightforward as that as Queen's Park can become locked up fairly easily - any late running from NR, with two trains in the North Sheds waiting to go, holds a train on the northbound platform - but generally into the North Sheds works best.