Embankment is back soon..

[Deleted]

I just wanted to remind you that the Bakerloo and Northern platforms are opening again at Embankment. About time, huh?

[theblackferret]

Is that the ex-Trafalgar Square of my youth?

If so, it had four entrances from the street, one in the Square itself.

Don't recall any pigeons on trains, even though you could feed them in the Square for 1s/6d a thimble, or cup as they called it, of corn.

And that's been closed since 8 January-so, did that beat the 43-week expected duration of works or not?

[Deleted]

I think I remember reading it was completed 2 weeks early but I may be wrong.

[Chris M]

Oct 27, 2014 22:27:12 GMT theblackferret said:

Is that the ex-Trafalgar Square of my youth?

If so, it had four entrances from the street, one in the Square itself.

No, that's part of what is now Charing Cross, served by just the Bakerloo and Northern Lines but also served by the Jubilee Line between 1977 and 1999. Embankment is what was called Charing Cross before the current Charing Cross was called Charing Cross. It is the station served by the Circle, District, Bakerloo and Northern lines with entrances to the Embankment and Villiers Street.

[brigham]

The Trafalgar Square entrance was a delightful iron-railled stairwell on the corner of the Square near St. Martin's. As far as I can work out, access to and from the Bakerloo platforms at this location involves considerably more walking since the 'improvements'.

Time to re-open this entrance?

[theblackferret]

Thanks-I lost track with Charing Cross/Embankment/Strand/Trafalgar Square in the late 1970's.

After which time, If I commuted up from Kent to London on the ex-SER lines, I used to get off to the Tube at London Bridge rather than CC.

More chance of a seat, of course.

In theory, anyhow.

[longhedge]

@chris M

Trust I am not being pedantic, but Jubilee Line opened to Charing Cross in 1979 and not 1977.

[Chris M]

longhedge - there is nothing wrong with pedantry!
I knew 1977 didn't sound quite right but I couldn't be bothered to check it. Sorry!

[superteacher]

Oct 27, 2014 23:00:02 GMT brigham said:

The Trafalgar Square entrance was a delightful iron-railled stairwell on the corner of the Square near St. Martin's. As far as I can work out, access to and from the Bakerloo platforms at this location involves considerably more walking since the 'improvements'.

Time to re-open this entrance?

I doubt that it would be possible to reopen that entrance, because there would be no way of getting to the platforms. As far as I know access was by lifts, which were taken out when Trafalgar Square closed to become part of the new Charing Cross.

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 28, 2014 9:00:37 GMT Chris M said:

longhedge - there is nothing wrong with pedantry!
I knew 1977 didn't sound quite right but I couldn't be bothered to check it. Sorry!

The only things of significance to happoen to the Jubilee Line in 1977 were that its name was changed from the Fleet Line, and the colour was changed from orange to silver (a pecked line of course as it was still under construction) to mark the Queen's Silver Jubilee. This was Horace Cutler's (aka King CoCo) greatest contribution to London Transport's development during his tenure as the last Tory leader of the GLC.

[longhedge]

Whilst at the time, I felt changing the name in 1977 to Jubilee line, when I recollect the chances of it opening in 1977 was nil, seemed perverse. However, it is probably a more meaningful name now, as the line goes nowhere near Fleet Street, so the somewhat meaningless Jubilee name is as `non-geographical` as one could wish for.

[brigham]

Where did the name 'Fleet Line' originate from? Does it run alongside the Fleet Ditch, which, it I remember rightly, is the outflow of the Highgate ponds?

[John Tuthill]

Oct 28, 2014 21:15:10 GMT brigham said:

Where did the name 'Fleet Line' originate from? Does it run alongside the Fleet Ditch, which, it I remember rightly, is the outflow of the Highgate ponds?

The original intention was the line to head off towards south east London via Cannon Street, and would have CROSSED under the line of the river Fleet. The river ran down what is now Farringdon Road, and enters the river below Blackfriars Bridge. For a long time there was a plot of land on the south side of Ludgate Hill with a hording which said something like: "Proposed site for station for proposed Fleet Line"

[longhedge]

brigham

It was initially intended to run under Fleet Street to Ludgate Circus and onwards in a easterly direction to Lewisham via Surrey Quays (joining ELL line) to New Cross, and also to New Cross Gate.
The overrun tunnels at the old Charing Cross station in fact almost extend to Aldwych. Horace Cutler tried hard to get funding to extend the line, even if done in stages, but to no avail.

[theblackferret]

Oct 28, 2014 21:15:10 GMT brigham said:

Where did the name 'Fleet Line' originate from? Does it run alongside the Fleet Ditch, which, it I remember rightly, is the outflow of the Highgate ponds?

According to Wikipedia:

The new line was to have been called the Fleet line[5] after the River Fleet (although it would only have crossed under the Fleet at Ludgate Circus; the central London section mostly follows the Tyburn).

5- Willis, Jon (1999). Extending the Jubilee Line: The planning story. London Transport. OCLC 637966374.

[longhedge]

John Tuthill
I remember the old enamel sign well, but cannot remember the exact wording - your suggestion seems about right although I seem to remember it stated Fleet Line. I used have drink lunchtime at the solitary Pub that stood in isolation on the Bomb Site.

[longhedge]

John Tuthill

I remember the old enamel sign well, fixed to a roughly constructed low brick wall around the Bomb Site, with a solitary Pub standing in the centre.

theblackferret

I have seen the Wiki article as well, and that it was named after the River Fleet North /South valley. Although, I have read that it was named so because it would have run under Fleet Street for half a mile.
On one level, it does seem more obvious that it was named after Fleet Street, which is well known rather than the River Fleet. Which account is correct? At face value, Wiki.

Perhaps this is like finding the person who first coined Bakerloo.

[longhedge]

Please ignore my first response, which I did not realise had been sent, as I realise `jtuthill` correctly stated Fleet Line. Should have gone to Specsavers.

[John Tuthill]

Oct 28, 2014 21:28:05 GMT longhedge said:

John Tuthill
I remember the old enamel sign well, but cannot remember the exact wording - your suggestion seems about right although I seem to remember it stated Fleet Line. I used have drink lunchtime at the solitary Pub that stood in isolation on the Bomb Site.

Wasn't it run by some woman, and used to serve draught Double Diamond? I used to work for the GPO in Faraday building

[longhedge]

That sounds correct. I used to work in Queen Victoria Street, and it was my lunchtime local for many years until a couple of years before being demolished, it turned into a restaurant. I went there, as at one stage the Old Kings Lud. where I used to go, had dodgy people offering drugs.

[theblackferret]

Oct 28, 2014 21:35:43 GMT longhedge said:

John Tuthill

I remember the old enamel sign well, fixed to a roughly constructed low brick wall around the Bomb Site, with a solitary Pub standing in the centre.

theblackferret

I have seen the Wiki article as well, and that it was named after the River Fleet North /South valley. Although, I have read that it was named so because it would have run under Fleet Street for half a mile.
On one level, it does seem more obvious that it was named after Fleet Street, which is well known rather than the River Fleet. Which account is correct? At face value, Wiki.

Perhaps this is like finding the person who first coined Bakerloo.

I think Baker-loo was coined by the London Evening News in 1906 & the company picked it up officially soon after. I don't believe loo was in common usage then for water-closet facilities, and I think that in turn was brought back from France or came over with Belgian refugees in WWI (derivated from L'eau(water), hence why it caught on.

I did also read that Fleet was used because of the grey colour assigned to it, when working, for the Tube map, at an early stage & that in turn was reminiscent of ships of the Fleet, which historically once were regulars on the Thames. But that may be apocryphal.

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 28, 2014 21:49:09 GMT theblackferret said:

I did also read that Fleet was used because of the grey colour assigned to it, when working, for the Tube map, at an early stage

I'm sure early maps showed it, when under construction, as an orange dotted line.

[John Tuthill]

Oct 28, 2014 21:49:09 GMT theblackferret said:

Oct 28, 2014 21:35:43 GMT longhedge said:

John Tuthill

I remember the old enamel sign well, fixed to a roughly constructed low brick wall around the Bomb Site, with a solitary Pub standing in the centre.

theblackferret

I have seen the Wiki article as well, and that it was named after the River Fleet North /South valley. Although, I have read that it was named so because it would have run under Fleet Street for half a mile.
On one level, it does seem more obvious that it was named after Fleet Street, which is well known rather than the River Fleet. Which account is correct? At face value, Wiki.

Perhaps this is like finding the person who first coined Bakerloo.

I think Baker-loo was coined by the London Evening News in 1906 & the company picked it up officially soon after. I don't believe loo was in common usage then for water-closet facilities, and I think that in turn was brought back from France or came over with Belgian refugees in WWI (derivated from L'eau(water), hence why it caught on.

A diarist whose non de plume was 'Quex'

[theblackferret]

Oct 28, 2014 21:55:17 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Oct 28, 2014 21:49:09 GMT theblackferret said:

I did also read that Fleet was used because of the grey colour assigned to it, when working, for the Tube map, at an early stage

I'm sure early maps showed it, when under construction, as an orange dotted line.

Yes, they did, although the only example I can find on a quick net search is grey:



The orange was due to some connection with Nell Gwynn, and I honestly read exactly what that was once, but cannot remember it.

[John Tuthill]

Oct 28, 2014 21:40:32 GMT longhedge said:

That sounds correct. I used to work in Queen Victoria Street, and it was my lunchtime local for many years until a couple of years before being demolished, it turned into a restaurant. I went there, as at one stage the Old Kings Lud. where I used to go, had dodgy people offering drugs.

It was 'The Queens Head' checkout 'pubshistory.com' and enter 3 water lane EC4 as a site address, there's a photo of it!

[gantshill]

I recall seeing the occasional C stock train with the interchange at Baker Street showing as the Fleet line rather than the Jubilee line. (There was a sticker over many of the line diagrams, but sometimes, the sticker would be absent.
The Fleet line was in grey. It was also lucky that at that time, (before the Hammersmith & City line had a separate identity) if the underground lines were written alphabetically, then changing Fleet to Jubilee did not affect the order of the lines.

[Indefatigable]

Why is the Drain not assigned a colour on that image?

[rincew1nd]

Oct 29, 2014 1:23:13 GMT Indefatigable said:

Why is the Drain not assigned a colour on that image?

Because at the time it was not a London UndergrounD line.

[sawb]

Anyway, does anyone know when Embankment is now due to re-open? I know it was due to be 31st October, but it is now showing on the TfL website as being closed for Saturday 1st November.

[Chris M]

The TfL website still says 31 October, but it is shown as closed on 1 November (with the 31 October message). It is shown as open on Sunday 2nd November though. My guess is that this is just a simple case of one of the two being off by a single day due to a misunderstanding or error.

The Circle and District lines are closed through the station all weekend, so there will be no interchange until Monday 3rd.