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Post by jamesb on Apr 10, 2015 19:46:11 GMT
There have been several recent incidents of passengers 'coming into contact' with trains.
Has automatic signalling / automatic train operation made the northern line platform train interface less safe?
Emergency stop plungers installed on the jubilee line were shelved and are all locked shut.
Maybe there is a role for them on the northern line?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 20:26:11 GMT
Much as I don't like ATO, I don't really think it can be said to have made the Northern line less safe. If anything at all, you'd think maybe it would free a T/Op up to concentrate specifically on the PTI, rather than looking for a stopping mark or something.
I suppose, there is a flip side which is that it's been noted that, when human beings aren't "in the loop", it can be hard for them to dive right into an automated process; but it's not exactly difficult to hit the emergency stop button. That really applies more to being expected to take over from a machine, e.g. when the autopilot cuts out on an aircraft. So I really doubt it's had any effect.
As you've noted, emergency stop plungers were shelved because they were considered more trouble than they were worth. They're a nice idea in some ways, but I'm not sure if they'd've helped with the most recent incident. I also agree that there's a lot of potential for abuse with little real gain. The Holland Park incident demonstrated this very well. Not only were passengers unable to operate them, with people attempting to hit the cap, rather than removing it to press the button; but the emergency stop plungers would not have helped in any way. The train at Holland Park was very much already stopped. That was, in some ways, the problem. I think it's pretty clear that Central line passengers don't really understand what they're for, or how they work.
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Post by will on Apr 10, 2015 21:13:36 GMT
Surely platform edge doors are the most suitable solution to prevent incidents like this. I'm surprised with the modernisation of the underground that they have not already been installed particularly on lines such as the Northern that aren't due for train replacement. This would be particularly useful at Clapham Common and Clapham North that only have narrow island platforms.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 22:53:21 GMT
I expect they will come in due course.
However, it's worth noting, that according to some sources at least, they were originally installed on the JLE for air management and to reduce the piston effect. How true that is I can't tell you, but it's certainly worth noting that they were not fitted to the overground parts of the JLE, nor were they retrofitted to any other parts of the Jubilee line.
PEDs are also another expense and not necessarily easy to retrofit. They require the train to communicate with the doors which is obviously now very much possible, but it's worth remembering that it's not just a case of putting in the doors, there's a whole load of other equipment, some of it train-bourne, which has to be added.
I also don't think that they're the answer to everything. For one thing, they're rarely practical where different stock share the same platform, unless the doors of both stocks happen to be in the same place, which is unlikely. Additionally, if there's one thing we do know, it's that passengers have quite enough difficulty standing clear of one set of doors. I myself remain to be convinced that adding another layer of difficulty for the commuter who seems to have confused their fat lumbering self with Usain Bolt is always and everywhere the ideal solution.
But don't get me wrong, I'm really no expert on PEDs, they have a number of very obvious advantages (although whether an additional narrowing of the island platform at the Claphams would help I'm not so sure), which may very well be worth it. I also have a slight bias against them, as I feel they ruin the view, but this is a small price to pay if it saves lives. I'm just raising a few points in an attempt to give some explanation as to why they're not yet ubiquitous.
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Post by jamesb on Apr 11, 2015 6:50:06 GMT
I was thinking that the driver has less control of the train as it enters the platform, because the speed is set, so if a hazard is seen there are only two options - keep going, or emergency stop. If the train is driven by the driver, at least he had the option of slowing down (or the approach speed into the platform was less fast to start with)?
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Post by domh245 on Apr 11, 2015 8:55:22 GMT
Drivers would usually approach platforms at almost line speed in tunnel sections and then brake. From what I've heard, some of the approach speeds are quicker, some are slower, and some are about the same!
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Post by superteacher on Apr 11, 2015 9:10:09 GMT
There are very few incidents when compared to the total number of journeys made. It just isn't cost effective to retro fit PED's. The Underground is pretty much the safest mode of transport, and we should focus on that aspect.
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Post by rheostar on Apr 11, 2015 9:10:18 GMT
Drivers would usually approach platforms at almost line speed in tunnel sections and then brake. From what I've heard, some of the approach speeds are quicker, some are slower, and some are about the same! Most drivers enter the platform at line speed and brake with little margin for error. They can't creep along worried that someone might jump under their train. Years ago when I had 'one under', although I saw the bloke on the track I still managed to put three cars over him. It all depends on where they jump onto the track. PEDs are the way to go as they'd prevent about 99% of PTI incidents. However, LU doesn't like the cost retro fitting PEDs and the unions are wary as they're a precursor to fully auto working. |
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Post by will on Apr 11, 2015 9:20:02 GMT
The next use of PEDs will most likely be after the introduction of the New Tube for London on the Piccadilly line as from the feasibility study the conclusion reached is that "It is expected that ultimately Platform Edge Doors (PEDs) will be implemented on the majority of platforms served by the New Tube for London. This will provide a safer and more modern space for customers who are waiting for their trains, much like that provided on the underground stations on the Jubilee line extension".
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Post by jamesb on Apr 11, 2015 11:15:18 GMT
There are very few incidents when compared to the total number of journeys made. It just isn't cost effective to retro fit PED's. The Underground is pretty much the safest mode of transport, and we should focus on that aspect. I agree with this - it is safe. As a passenger, my perceptions have been influenced by the media - having read about several incidents in a short time period all on the northern line. It raises interesting questions for me: - Wifi allows access to twitter and other social media sites - so incidents can be reported before the emergency services have even arrived - there are multiple youtube clips of station evacuations etc. - Wifi means people are encouraged to use their mobile devices in underground stations - this service is actively promoted. -My perception of the northern line is that the platforms are smaller and narrow in places e.g. Clapham Common . with wifi and mobile devices, everyone has a mobile in their hand. Have the number of dropped items on the track gone up since wifi was introduced? It's the behaviour of passengers which is probably an issue - but revenue generating policies - e.g. wifi - have promoted some of this behaviour...The London Underground is a working railway, not a shopping mall. There is a difference. At Earlsfield station, its almost impossible to get on a SW Train in the morning rush hour - several trains often pass with passengers waiting to get in. There is a security company employed with several staff members up and down the platform encouraging people to stand back. There is not the same number of staff on some northern line platforms in the rush hour. Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed? |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 11, 2015 12:05:48 GMT
There are very few incidents when compared to the total number of journeys made. It just isn't cost effective to retro fit PED's. The Underground is pretty much the safest mode of transport, and we should focus on that aspect. I agree with this - it is safe. As a passenger, my perceptions have been influenced by the media - having read about several incidents in a short time period all on the northern line. It raises interesting questions for me: - Wifi allows access to twitter and other social media sites - so incidents can be reported before the emergency services have even arrived - there are multiple youtube clips of station evacuations etc. - Wifi means people are encouraged to use their mobile devices in underground stations - this service is actively promoted. -My perception of the northern line is that the platforms are smaller and narrow in places e.g. Clapham Common . with wifi and mobile devices, everyone has a mobile in their hand. Have the number of dropped items on the track gone up since wifi was introduced? It's the behaviour of passengers which is probably an issue - but revenue generating policies - e.g. wifi - have promoted some of this behaviour...The London Underground is a working railway, not a shopping mall. There is a difference. At Earlsfield station, its almost impossible to get on a SW Train in the morning rush hour - several trains often pass with passengers waiting to get in. There is a security company employed with several staff members up and down the platform encouraging people to stand back. There is not the same number of staff on some northern line platforms in the rush hour. Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed? I do agree regarding the use of things like mobile phones, IPods etc. There are far more distractions nowadays, all of which can lead to potentially unsafe situations. It amazes me how oblivious some people are to their surroundings. The thought of not making use of your two primary senses amazes me. And of course, when these people bump into things, or miss important announcements, they behave as if it's not their fault! |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 11, 2015 19:56:43 GMT
On a crowded platform at Mortlake station toady, coming home after the boat race, one young man had to be moved back behind the yellow line by one of his mates. He was so engrossed in his phone that he didn't react to the horn of the through train. I think he'd had a few to drink as well though.
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Post by bassmike on Apr 12, 2015 10:19:30 GMT
They walk amongst us in droves
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Post by bassmike on Apr 12, 2015 10:23:39 GMT
Second to that ,on reflection, as time progresses I think that "those that walk amongst us" are becoming the norm and the fully aware types are becoming the minority.
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Post by nickf on Apr 12, 2015 10:33:57 GMT
Second to that ,on reflection, as time progresses I think that "those that walk amongst us" are becoming the norm and the fully aware types are becoming the minority. Too true, yet Natural Selection would suggest that such people would self-obliterate and become, in time, fewer. cf. The Darwin Awards
Perhaps their powers of reproduction are greater than other folk's? |
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Post by jamesb on Apr 12, 2015 11:11:48 GMT
But does WiFi provided free of charge (at least for me as an EE customer) encourage people to use their mobile devices on the platforms? Perhaps technology could be used to ping a message to flash on everyones mobile saying "stand back - train approaching" when the train comes in?!
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Post by Chris W on Apr 12, 2015 12:53:13 GMT
Ladies/Gents
The staff are watching the thread.
We appreciate that the thread towards the bottom of the first page has referred to the Darwin awards in a light hearted manner, but we'd like to remind members that the gentleman struck by the train at Stockwell on Friday morning continues to fight for his life.
Please bare this in mind when posting.
Many thanks
ChrisW
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Post by nickf on Apr 12, 2015 13:08:39 GMT
Ladies/Gents The staff are watching the thread. We appreciate that the thread towards the bottom of the first page has referred to the Darwin awards in a light hearted manner, but we'd like to remind members that the gentleman struck by the train at Stockwell on Friday morning continues to fight for his life. Please bare this in mind when posting. Many thanks ChrisW Point taken - many apologies. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2015 15:01:43 GMT
A few years ago LU changed many more platforms from category "A" to "B" (ie if the OPO equipment is not working, you don't need assisted dispatch from a member of staff on a category "B" but you do with category "A") Many platforms were risk assessed as category "A" in 2000-1 but LU saw fit to throw that in the bin in light of their quest to shed staff. Surely with rising passenger numbers, more safeguards should be put in place for incidents involving PTI.
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 12, 2015 22:15:58 GMT
But does WiFi provided free of charge (at least for me as an EE customer) encourage people to use their mobile devices on the platforms? Perhaps technology could be used to ping a message to flash on everyones mobile saying "stand back - train approaching" when the train comes in?! It depends on the people. I only use it on the platform if there's quite a while between trains. I tend to find wifi more useful when on the train, allowing your phone to send/rx messages at each stop. |
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Post by North End on Apr 13, 2015 11:38:39 GMT
Much as I don't like ATO, I don't really think it can be said to have made the Northern line less safe. If anything at all, you'd think maybe it would free a T/Op up to concentrate specifically on the PTI, rather than looking for a stopping mark or something. I suppose, there is a flip side which is that it's been noted that, when human beings aren't "in the loop", it can be hard for them to dive right into an automated process; but it's not exactly difficult to hit the emergency stop button. That really applies more to being expected to take over from a machine, e.g. when the autopilot cuts out on an aircraft. So I really doubt it's had any effect. As you've noted, emergency stop plungers were shelved because they were considered more trouble than they were worth. They're a nice idea in some ways, but I'm not sure if they'd've helped with the most recent incident. I also agree that there's a lot of potential for abuse with little real gain. The Holland Park incident demonstrated this very well. Not only were passengers unable to operate them, with people attempting to hit the cap, rather than removing it to press the button; but the emergency stop plungers would not have helped in any way. The train at Holland Park was very much already stopped. That was, in some ways, the problem. I think it's pretty clear that Central line passengers don't really understand what they're for, or how they work. Much as I don't really like ATO (although recognise the consistency it can impose by designing out the problem of slow drivers), I don't think ATO can be associated with any of the recent Northern Line incidents. Clapham South was primarily a doors incident. Having seen the footage, the main issue was that the train was fully loaded, the person tried to board when there wasn't really room for her or her belongings, and the platform also had people waiting, in position, for the next train. By all accounts the driver did everything correctly, and reacted very promptly as soon as he saw something amiss. The basic issue was too many people trying to use a limited resource. The other two incidents were basically down to the passenger's actions. Both occurred near the tailwall, and at Old Street the platform is approached round a blind curve, so the obstruction would not have come in to view until the last moment. In both cases, the drivers seem to have reacted very quickly to bring the trains to a stand. Both Old Street and Stockwell were always 35mph approaches, from personal experience I would always be aiming to hit the platform tailwall at the full 35. Under ATO, with the current software, if I recall correctly Old Street is currently also a 35 approach, Stockwell is now over 40 mph, however even under tunnel brake rates I would say the train brakes slighly earlier than I used to in both locations. Obviously differences between drivers meant not everyone drove the same, but I don't think any difference between manual and ATO is enough to change the outcome of any incident. |
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Post by trt on Apr 13, 2015 13:17:19 GMT
How far back from Old Street does the driver's platform cam cut in?
And there was an idea mooted of using the backside camera to make the phone screen "transparent", showing an image of what's underneath the operator's feet.
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Post by brigham on Apr 14, 2015 9:06:06 GMT
The idea of installing free WiFi so people can be 'not with it' in a safety-critical environment strikes me as irresponsible, if not bordering on insane.
It would be like providing some sort of entertainment to occupy the driver of a motor-car...
...Oh!
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Post by Chris M on Apr 16, 2015 13:32:32 GMT
When passing through Old Street about half an hour ago there was a message, "Ladies and gentlemen, when using tablets or mobile phones please be careful around the edge of the platform" (or something very similar to that). It had the sound of an announcement recorded by one of the station staff for repeated play rather but whether it was in response to a particular person I don't know (I was on the escalator when I heard it).
I wonder if this is a local initiative or something wider?
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Post by jamesb on Apr 16, 2015 22:14:31 GMT
There are also hazard signs at a few stations on the wall opposite the platform warning to keep of the tracks of risk life changing injuries and urging people to take care of their mobile devices.
If in doubt, make a sign!
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Post by Chris W on Apr 22, 2015 19:38:50 GMT
The UK press has revealed that the gentleman struck by the Northern Line train at Stockwell station on 10 April, died 3 days later: Daily TelegraphI would guess (purely my supposition) that his family didn't want any mention of his passing until he had been laid to rest. |
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Post by wimblephil on Apr 22, 2015 21:34:58 GMT
When passing through Old Street about half an hour ago there was a message, "Ladies and gentlemen, when using tablets or mobile phones please be careful around the edge of the platform" (or something very similar to that). It had the sound of an announcement recorded by one of the station staff for repeated play rather but whether it was in response to a particular person I don't know (I was on the escalator when I heard it). I wonder if this is a local initiative or something wider? They've been making announcements like that at Victoria D&C for a long time now. I'd say at least a year. |
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Post by jamesb on Apr 22, 2015 22:05:42 GMT
The UK press has revealed that the gentleman struck by the Northern Line train at Stockwell station on 10 April, died 3 days later: Daily TelegraphI would guess (purely my supposition) that his family didn't want any mention of his passing until he had been laid to rest. I read this too. Very sad. I want to stress that my starting this thread was not in response to any particular incident and was just a general question... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 22:58:47 GMT
I am very sorry to hear that this was a fatal accident, and sincerely hope this post doesn't cause anyone distress
With all the accent now on health and safety and the good record of our various transport services I feel that individuals are tending to forget that they are responsible for their own safety in many situations.
As you will see I started travelling on the District line more that 70 years ago, and I was taught back then to keep clear of the platform edge at all times especially if a train was arriving. That still works well today.
You know where the train is going to travel along the platform and it surely is big enough to see and to hear if you are not allowing yourself to be distracted by phones other devices and people.
I was driving along a fairly quiet road some time ago and there was a school girl with phone and earpieces texting away with her back to me, and something told me she was about to cross the road, so I slowed down. Sure enough giving all her attention to the phone she stepped into the road with her back to me and I stopped in time and then tooted my horn, she was so surprised to see me. I just hope she was more careful in future.
We are responsible for our own safety in many situations/
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Post by trt on Apr 23, 2015 8:42:23 GMT
There's a certain generation who stand way, way back from the edge at all stations. That generation is the one that grew up with slam-door trains.
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