rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 8, 2018 20:58:15 GMT
MerseyRail want to extend their network and serve Skelmersdale, I've not seen anything to suggest this won't be 3rd rail. Merseyrail's new trains will be fully equipped for both con rail and OLE (even if they don't have a pantograph and 25KV transformer underneath) as that makes the fleet more 'future proof' for owners. As for Skelmersdale, time will tell, but its short length and the nature of the existing Merseyrail service may allow a more robust case to be made to the ORR in favour of Conductor rail. However as the ORR publicly state the default position is to say 'No' and as such it won't be easy process. My point being (bringing things back on topic) that unlike our hypothetical asbestos barn extension, brand new 3rd rail is possible - it's just a case of having the resources to jump through the (admittedly small) H&S hoops. It does strike me though that if anyone manages to purchase an ex-LU train then the best place to keep it may well be Ryde. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 8, 2018 21:34:21 GMT
People are explaining very convincing arguments using facts and references for both sides of this. Ultimately though, isn't the reality of the situation that any such project will by necessity involve highly paid legal minds/civil servants with oodles of experience to argue the case for or against as is perceived necessary per case? The yes/yes*/no*/no decision comes down ultimately to what the most authoritative and convincing argument is, as made by a group of people who's job it is to push such things through/forward/back.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 8, 2018 22:24:52 GMT
It would have to be 'third rail' as an isolated island of either diesel or overhead would not be practical No more impractical than the isolated island of dc between Drayton Park and Moorgate. And Southern already has units equipped with pantographs for the Milton Keynes services. |
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Post by Chris W on Feb 8, 2018 22:27:36 GMT
Apologies if my post appears, blunt and brutal, however this is the cold reality we live in... A line where former LU stock can travel under it's own motive power is, in my opinion/knowledge, a pipe dream. The only likely place/route would have been the Epping to Ongar line... and that was targeted for closure for many years by LU, because it lost money, hand over fist. No-one needs to look very far (Google) for evidence of that. As part of my extra-curricular role (writing for Rail Express), I deal with numerous senior persons in LU, TfL and heritage lines. Running a railway is never cheap. It's arduous, time consuming and quite rightly, comes with regulation, protection for the those that use it and work on it. Everyday passengers are a joy, however then you have to deal with the average, common or garden trespasser, not to mention those that think that graffiti-ing, damaging or destroying your railway is a fun hobby and a great idea. Sometimes is very difficult to tell the difference between a trespasser and an idiotic trainspotter or two with suicidal tendencies. If a line, such as the EOR were to return to 3rd/4th rail operation: - who will undertake the upgrade work (inexperienced volunteers, however motivated, are unlikely to have the necessary experience/qualifications) ?
- how will the 3rd/4th rails be maintained (inspections and repairs whether used or not) + how will the associated costs and funding be achieved ?
- given the cost of LU operation was at a loss, how can the EOR or a.n.other railway, with even occasional use/power applied, make a profit so that they can operate former LU stock that also need to be funded so every car can be restored/maintained ?
- what would be the cost of insurance for any private railway to operate 3rd / 4th rail power ?
- who would pay for any accidental death / electrocution, if liability against the railway were found by a court and what might be the future implications ?
LU rightly concentrates on the everyday paying passenger, given that funding has been slashed from central Government. Even very occasional specials need to be supported by enthusiasts and then fit in between normal services. Unless huge levels (£ multi-millions) of investment commences and continues to be forthcoming from the enthusiast community, the current situation will remain. Unless the London Transport Museum can fund projects (they have themselves received funding cuts), older rolling stock will be withdrawn and scrapped with one or perhaps two cars being saved. It is very easy to compare LU with railways such as Berlin's U-Bahn with heritage railway stock, however if any other railway faces exactly the same long-term passenger growth pressures and most importantly the poor fiscal situation, we can compare. Until they do, I'm afraid we have the enjoy what we have and we as enthusiasts need to support LU / the LTM. I have said this (posted) before and undoubtedly will do again. If anyone is able to invest please contact me as I am in the fortunate position to be able to put you directly in touch with representatives of the LTM and LU. I posted a similar message around Christmas time, however never received a single PM back. That tells me all I need to know... and the reality we all need to face, as enthusiasts. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 9, 2018 0:09:44 GMT
Indeed, while I disagree with Phil that operation of a third/fourth rail-powered heritage railway is not impossible from a legal point of view, from a practical point of view it is incredibly unlikely - doubly so in the current financial climate.
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Post by zbang on Feb 9, 2018 2:01:22 GMT
Very interesting topic, but I do have to grab onto an earlier reply: ... but 3 rail is (compared to overhead) inefficient and dangerous... Well.... if the overhead is energized with a far higher voltage than a 3rd rail, it may be a more efficient in delivering power to the trainset, otherwise, and absent other info, I'd call it a wash with the possible advantage to the 3rd rail as a better conductor. (No argument on the more-dangerous part, or on the use of MV for long-distance/main-line trains.) When discussing heritage lines which were probably worked at 600vdc (give or take), I don't think it matters. It may be interesting that the Western Rail Museum near San Francisco has 600vdc wire over about 5.5 miles of track which they maintain themselves, only hiring in help for the 13kv feeders and MV switchgear. z! |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 9, 2018 7:07:29 GMT
It may be interesting that the Western Rail Museum near San Francisco has 600vdc wire over about 5.5 miles of track which they maintain themselves, only hiring in help for the 13kv feeders and MV switchgear. z! Also the Shore Line Trolley Museum in Connecticut: shorelinetrolley.org/collection/Which has ex-New York Elevated and Subway cars running under a 600v DC wire (are the existing pickup shoes still live, as they would be on LU Stock?) |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 9, 2018 10:31:41 GMT
I very much agree with Chris W. Not just for financial reasons but also for sheer practicality and safety. However, perhaps it could work with 'electric' rails that are there for cosmetic reasons - and not actually live. As I said in an earlier message in this thread, a much safer (etc) solution would be to use batteries or even diesel generators (inside train or on trailers). This could even lead to preserved London Underground (and other electric rail powered) trains being able to carry passengers! Vivarail battery D Stock in what is otherwise 'as withdrawn' condition? Or how about a conversion of the preserved Cravens 1960 tube stock train? The film below (not mine) of a French museum railway using a preserved iconic Sprague Parisian metro train shows what I have in mind... its the best that we can hope for and in my view what the Bluebell Railway should do with a preserved Southern unit... as well as (perhaps) some ex-LT rolling stock. Apologies if my post appears, blunt and brutal, however this is the cold reality we live in... |
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 9, 2018 15:38:30 GMT
I find it interesting that a number of heritage railways use diesels alongside the expected steam & some even run a quasi-commuter service on them.
Do we actually need electric on them anyway? I'd wonder if the expense of installing/reviving electric rails and maintaining/safeguarding them would actually be far more than adapting Tube stock via battery to run on ordinary rail.
Is it the UndergrounD experience per se we want to recreate or is it just the chance of riding on certain types of old carriages. These two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive of course, but which is more important to the potential passenger here?
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Post by Chris W on Feb 9, 2018 16:23:46 GMT
When the Cravens 60TS visited the EOR a few years back, the batteries were charged overnight so the doors would work.
To ensure that the charge wasn't wasted, the lights remained off when passengers were travelling along the line, as was the air conditioning (very limited anyway in the 60TS DMs).
Travelling in them with Mel + the boys during a very hot day, the sweat just poured out of everyone as we were shunted west of North Weald station, before returning some 20 mins later, much smellier than when we had embarked :-o
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 9, 2018 16:42:06 GMT
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Post by revupminster on Feb 9, 2018 17:47:18 GMT
Heritage railways are struggling to find volunteers as the existing ones literally die out. Like churches, music societies, history societies, civic societies all have trouble getting new members and even harder to get their current members to serve on committies.
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Post by silenthunter on Feb 9, 2018 17:55:36 GMT
Heritage railways are struggling to find volunteers as the existing ones literally die out. Like churches, music societies, history societies, civic societies all have trouble getting new members and even harder to get their current members to serve on committies. It's not like there's a shortage of railway fans though. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 9, 2018 18:09:55 GMT
I find it interesting that a number of heritage railways use diesels alongside the expected steam & some even run a quasi-commuter service on them. Do we actually need electric on them anyway? I'd wonder if the expense of installing/reviving electric rails and maintaining/safeguarding them would actually be far more than adapting Tube stock via battery to run on ordinary rail. Is it the UndergrounD experience per se we want to recreate or is it just the chance of riding on certain types of old carriages. These two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive of course, but which is more important to the potential passenger here? I think its the ride in the type of train, hearing its unique 'noises', etc Short of a heritage railway having access to a subterranean section of railway (yes, *very* unlikely) the true Underground experience will be impossible to recreate. The best we can hope for in this respect are tunnels on heritage lines (eg: the Bluebell railway) and even on the north curve when travelling between Amersham and Watford. Simon |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 9, 2018 18:38:45 GMT
Heritage railways are struggling to find volunteers as the existing ones literally die out. Like churches, music societies, history societies, civic societies all have trouble getting new members and even harder to get their current members to serve on committies. It's not like there's a shortage of railway fans though. There isn't a shortage of railway fans, but there is a shortage of railway fans with all of the time, money and desire to volunteer at a heritage railway. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 9, 2018 19:20:37 GMT
It's not like there's a shortage of railway fans though. There isn't a shortage of railway fans, but there is a shortage of railway fans with all of the time, money and desire to volunteer at a heritage railway. And alas most of the "fans" that are out there prefer the comfort of being at home with a keyboard to a draughty carriage-shed de-greasing an underframe. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 9, 2018 19:27:40 GMT
a heritage railway having access to a subterranean section of railway (yes, *very* unlikely) Mail Rail? |
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Post by silenthunter on Feb 9, 2018 19:30:44 GMT
It's not like there's a shortage of railway fans though. There isn't a shortage of railway fans, but there is a shortage of railway fans with all of the time, money and desire to volunteer at a heritage railway. I do one or two days a month myself as a booking office clerk. It's not a huge expense - and it's good for your CV. |
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Post by zbang on Feb 9, 2018 19:48:35 GMT
]And alas most of the "fans" that are out there prefer the comfort of being at home with a keyboard to a draughty carriage-shed de-greasing an underframe. They are, of course, missing all the fun that comes after the de-greasing. IME, which is somewhat limited, some heritage sites make it difficult to volunteer; they set up hierarchies so you have to start out sweeping floors, ignore real volunteer skills, and generally throw up roadblocks to anyone that would upset the apple cart of the entrenched folks. They also whinge about how many volunteers they (don't) get. Fortunately, there are also sites that welcome anyone who walks in the door. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 9, 2018 21:11:39 GMT
Folks we're drifting again...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 9, 2018 22:43:08 GMT
There isn't a shortage of railway fans, but there is a shortage of railway fans with all of the time, money and desire to volunteer at a heritage railway. I do one or two days a month myself as a booking office clerk. It's not a huge expense - and it's good for your CV. It might not be a huge expense for you, for someone who is unemployed or working minimum wage and lives some distance from their nearest line it can be. |
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Post by peterc on Feb 10, 2018 16:42:12 GMT
It's not like there's a shortage of railway fans though. There isn't a shortage of railway fans, but there is a shortage of railway fans with all of the time, money and desire to volunteer at a heritage railway. There is a shortage of people in most if not all interests who are willing to get involved in running or organising things. Pushing this somewhere in the vague area of the original topic one issue overlooked is the physical storage space required. An EMU takes up a lot of track space compared with a loco or an individual hauled coach. |
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Post by stafford on Feb 19, 2018 16:08:02 GMT
Going back to the EOR, may I perhaps embarrass someone out there by asking who actually got the scrap cash for the power rails when lifted, and secondly
when will the Government papers be released for the period during which that actress lady sold the line at the very last moment to someone who wasn't a preservationist organisation
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 19, 2018 16:15:02 GMT
Government papers are usually released after thirty years, so 2028.
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Post by miff on Feb 19, 2018 17:17:38 GMT
The conductor rails were removed during the dark ages, before the present owner of the EOR took full control.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 19, 2018 20:03:23 GMT
Was that during Pilot's laughable tenure?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 20, 2018 9:24:53 GMT
I happen to know some of the people actually involved in the lifting of the juice rails on the EOR, the and the current owner of the EOR who, I think you'll find if you delve enough in Companies House records, traces back to the same person throughout its history.
I won't say a lot more on a public forum on that front.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 20, 2018 9:42:45 GMT
I’m surprised LU didn’t lift the conductor rails.
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Post by brigham on Feb 20, 2018 12:07:05 GMT
I’m surprised LU didn’t lift the conductor rails. Asset-stripping ain't what it used to be... |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 20, 2018 12:07:13 GMT
Presumably LU decided that the cost of doing lifting them and then organising their scrapping exceeded the scrap metal value and/or the cost of installing them elsewhere (if still in god enough condition)
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