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Post by dazz285 on Nov 28, 2018 0:55:45 GMT
we only need 7 for the Goblin to run the normal service - don't we? & an average of 4 drivers per train per day. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 28, 2018 15:47:52 GMT
we only need 7 for the Goblin to run the normal service - don't we? Yes. To be best of my knowledge only 6 710s have been dragged from Derby to Willesden so there aren't even 7 trains in London. However not a single class 710 has been handed over from Bombardier to Arriva Rail London. It is unclear whether any of the three units actually seen out of NR metals is close to achieving the contractual "fault free" mileage which would permit handover. Their previous night time adventures on the WCML from Willesden to Crewe with short runs to Rugby have been curtailed with trains only allowed as far north as Milton Keynes. This is apparently due to Network Rail "concerns" - I can only assume they don't want a conked out 710 blocking Crewe or Rugby. The overnight testing has also been interrupted several times - presumably while identified faults or problems are investigated and resolved. It also appears to be the case that no unit has been tested on DC traction supply on NR tracks so that's another issue requiring resolution at some point. While I appreciate there is a workaround to get the 710s out of Willesden depot and on to the GOBLIN avoiding use of DC power supplies in the low level central platform it is just another issue that may throw up further issues in the future requiring yet more software tweaks. In theory we have about a month to get some level of driver training achieved that might allow the odd 710 into service *if* Bombardier can get to the point of handing over a train within a few days. I just cannot see how 7 trains and the required drivers could be rostered for full service by end December - it will take many more weeks to get to that position and that assumes the trains are reliable when the passengers and drivers are let loose on them. That is pretty unlikely as experience with just about every train fleet, 172s and 378s included, shows that there is a difficult initial period as further faults manifest themselves and drivers get accustomed to how the trains perform and learn how to diagnose faults / reset systems etc. In an ideal world you would be going through that period with the back up of the diesel trains still being around. Instead we're headed to an "all or nothing" scenario *unless* TfL are going to adopt a phased timetable build up as well - start with a threadbare 30 min headway requiring 3 trains then a 20 min headway with 4/5 and then up to 6 with the required 15 minute headway. I'm somewhat sceptical that TfL and Arriva would go through all this palaver - much more likely that we go to rail replacement buses with the line left free for test runs and driver training. That might allow some extra track time for mileage accumulation and driver training but at the cost of public outrage / reputational damage of the new trains running up and down empty while the passengers are consigned to buses.  |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 3, 2018 10:44:19 GMT
And then there were seven: Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Dec 3, 2018 12:42:01 GMT
Whilst it is promising to see another unit relocated to London, I don't think anyone should read too much into this.
Put simply the move may simply be due to pressure on space in Derby.
Meantime other rail forum sites have for some time been carrying unconfirmed reports of problems with the 710 testing. Given the level of detail which has appeared recently it suggests this is probably coming from a well informed source and fully justifies Network Rail's action to confine 710 testing to times and routes where a conked out 710 can be revived or rescued before it causes chaos.
Unless/until Bombardier can demonstrate to network rail they have resolved the rumoured pantograph issue, then regardless of how many units are physically sitting in sidings in London, none of them will be ready to hand over to Arriva Rail London to commence driver training on GOBLIN, let alone carry passengers on GOBLIN.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Dec 3, 2018 19:03:26 GMT
To answer Alpinejohn's comment re Sullivan buses, I can't speak on behlaf of Sullivan buses, I only work there!
But the way I understand bus tendering works, when a contract for pre-planned work has been let to an operator, for a period of I think 2 years they have the option of having first choice should that job come up again. As Arriva had the main contract for the Barking-Gospel Oak closure, it would be they who would be offered any further work on that closure. It is some considerable drain on resources in terms of buses and drivers as it's quite a lengthy route to operate with numerous traffic delays. I understand invited tenderers priced the work accordingly. The short notice enhanced service as we have to call it would be separate from the previous main contract and Sullivans were offered and accepted the job. Even the weekend job takes 6 buses I think and around 20 drivers plus admin and supervisory staff, ferry vehicles to get drivers on site from South Mimms and engineering cover.
The previous weekend service that Sullivans used to do was an absolute pig of a route to operate with a round trip taking up to 5 and a quarter hours! I know, because I speak from personal experience. the route was subsequently amended when it was let on long-term daily tender, but even so was very hungry on resources. Any operator who gets this job again would need to have sufficient spare resources to cover this. On emergency replacement, buses and staff can be brought i from all over the place, but that sort of operation can only happen for a short time and commands an emergency cover price.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 3, 2018 20:12:19 GMT
Whilst it is promising to see another unit relocated to London, I don't think anyone should read too much into this. Put simply the move may simply be due to pressure on space in Derby. Meantime other rail forum sites have for some time been carrying unconfirmed reports of problems with the 710 testing. Given the level of detail which has appeared recently it suggests this is probably coming from a well informed source and fully justifies Network Rail's action to confine 710 testing to times and routes where a conked out 710 can be revived or rescued before it causes chaos. Unless/until Bombardier can demonstrate to network rail they have resolved the rumoured pantograph issue, then regardless of how many units are physically sitting in sidings in London, none of them will be ready to hand over to Arriva Rail London to commence driver training on GOBLIN, let alone carry passengers on GOBLIN. Don't disagree with any of that. There is also a suggestion that the sublease on the remaining 172s ends on 9 December (new timetable date). That is less than a week away and it is not known if TfL have succeeded or failed in securing an extension to the sublease. All that is known is that TfL are "in negotiations" with West Midlands Trains. While I can understand that WM Trains may not be in any great hurry to help TfL out and may be trying to extract a handsome fee for any extension we are bordering on yet another farce with the rolling stock situation on the GOBLIN. TfL must be delighted that no one is waiting in line for the 315s and 317s used on West Anglia routes or else they'd be in really deep trouble. |
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Post by silenthunter on Dec 3, 2018 21:24:06 GMT
The 315s on TfL Rail are already going for scrap.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 3, 2018 21:37:44 GMT
Time to start Goblin driver training with 315s, perhaps?
OK, far from ideal (especially if the service is also reduced to 20 minute intervals) but the trains are there and its better to have something than nothing!
Scrapping can wait!
Passengers will understand and be grudgingly thankful that at least they are still on a train.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 3, 2018 21:56:34 GMT
Time to start Goblin driver training with 315s, perhaps? OK, far from ideal (especially if the service is also reduced to 20 minute intervals) but the trains are there and its better to have something than nothing! Scrapping can wait! Passengers will understand and be grudgingly thankful that at least they are still on a train. I'm sure we've done this before, they require despatch apparatus. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 3, 2018 22:04:48 GMT
As I understand it, it's not just a question of training drivers. The Goblin is set up for OPO using onboard cameras, which the 315s don't have. They use on-playform cameras, which the Goblin doesn't have. So you would need to retrofit the 315s, or adapt them to allow the doors to be operated by guards, or have despatchers on every platform.
If it was possible, I'm sure they would have thought of it by now.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 3, 2018 22:09:25 GMT
Probably.
Well I suppose that if its any sort of consolation this won't be the first time that a railway service in London is temporarily canned for lack of working trains.
I still remember this happening on the Central (plus Waterloo & City) lines when the motors started falling off the trains whilst they were carrying passengers. The degree of disruption that passengers experienced for quite a few months was horrific.
Simon
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Post by silenthunter on Dec 3, 2018 22:09:36 GMT
As I understand it, it's not just a question of training drivers. The Goblin is set up for OPO using onboard cameras, which the 315s don't have. They use on-playform cameras, which the Goblin doesn't have. So you would need to retrofit the 315s, or adapt them to allow the doors to be operated by guards, or have despatchers on every platform. If it was possible, I'm sure they would have thought of it by now. 315s had guards when they were introduced in 1980, FWIW. Also, the Greater Anglia "stick your head out of the window" approach is banned for new uses by the Office of Road and Rail.
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 3, 2018 22:17:53 GMT
We've done replacement of 378s with 315s (or any other stock without DOO cameras or requiring guards) to death, members can read back through if they want to see why. Desist, please.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 5, 2018 23:30:42 GMT
The units continue to tread pastures new: Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display. Edit to add: Our very own @juliang also managed to point their lens towards it: Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display. |
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 6, 2018 2:24:44 GMT
I saw one alongside a Bakerloo line train at Willesden Junction, admittedly the 710 was stationary in a siding.
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Post by fleetline on Dec 6, 2018 17:56:16 GMT
I saw one alongside a Bakerloo line train at Willesden Junction, admittedly the 710 was stationary in a siding. About 1600 I did a quick whiz from Euston to Harrow and back. On the way up nothing was lit up but on the way back there was a 710 at the north end of the Depot. Don’t know if it was coming or going tho. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 1:06:12 GMT
Is there any chance of LO acquiring any totally different stock on a short term basis? The 707’s are going to be freed up fairly soon and they have cameras (both the 172’s and 707’s are owned by angel trains), could they be used on the Watford DC lines to free up 378s for the GOBLIN? I do understand tripcock mounting would be a bit of an issue with the bogies on the 707, but would it hypothetically be possible to lease them?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 24, 2018 7:24:25 GMT
The 707’s are going to be freed up fairly soon . . . could they be used on the Watford DC lines to free up 378s for the GOBLIN? I didn’t think SWR were expecting the new 701s quite yet and the 707s are fully deployed on SWR services |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 24, 2018 7:49:09 GMT
I didn’t think SWR were expecting the new 701s quite yet and the 707s are fully deployed on SWR services None have been built yet - indeed the 720s for Anglia will be first, and none of them have been seen yet either. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 11:41:54 GMT
The 707’s are going to be freed up fairly soon . . . could they be used on the Watford DC lines to free up 378s for the GOBLIN? I didn’t think SWR were expecting the new 701s quite yet and the 707s are fully deployed on SWR services Oh right sorry about that... I read somewhere about them being surplus from 2019 and assumed the re-introduction of the 444’s had caused a re-shuffle and made them redundant. Bar the northern pacers, is there any appropriate stock that could be used (are there any 365’s left?) |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 24, 2018 12:40:48 GMT
It's the 442s which are being re-introduced to SWR, but they're not ready yet either. 365s are not fitted with cameras for OPO. Nor are 314s or 319s, before anyone asks. And this is dc only. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 15:48:37 GMT
Oops yes sorry got mixed up for a minute, I was thinking of the 5-WES.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 29, 2018 22:09:31 GMT
So glad that the next generation of tube stock won’t be built by Bombardier. This fiasco and the severe problems with the class 345 introduction vindicate the decision not to award them the contract,
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 30, 2018 10:00:04 GMT
Although unlikely, would using GN class 313s on the DC line be an option and transferring 378s to the Goblin be possible? I assume the DC line is the quietest route (in relative terms). I know the 313s used to run the DC line but apart from driver training would there be any other barriers now?
I assume 6 cars are too long for the platforms but 5 cars (with the panto car removed from one set) would work? [perhaps we’re into fantasy now! 😂]
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Post by superteacher on Dec 30, 2018 10:11:09 GMT
Although unlikely, would using GN class 313s on the DC line be an option and transferring 378s to the Goblin be possible? I assume the DC line is the quietest route (in relative terms). I know the 313s used to run the DC line but apart from driver training would there be any other barriers now? I assume 6 cars are too long for the platforms but 5 cars (with the panto car removed from one set) would work? [perhaps we’re into fantasy now! 😂] As a train enthusiast, I’d love to have the 313’s back on the DC lines! However, I can see it generating bad publicity that TFL were having to use trains which they withdrew nearly a decade ago! |
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Post by metman on Dec 30, 2018 10:39:03 GMT
Yes can you imagine the publicity!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 30, 2018 11:42:24 GMT
The 378s are I think the only viable electric stock for a number of reasons: They are obviously cleared for use on the line, they have in-cab CCTV, depot staff know how to maintain them, and they are not needed by anyone other than TfL. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that Goblin drivers are part of a common pool with NLL drivers so they already know how to drive the trains.
Drivers and depot staff would need (re)training on 313s, they would need guards and/or qualified platform staff (which TfL would have to recruit) due to lack of CCTV, and they would need to be cleared for use on the line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 30, 2018 11:49:09 GMT
Although unlikely, would using GN class 313s on the DC line be an option The GN's 717s haven't yet entered service, so I doubt that it has any 313s to spare. |
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Post by silenthunter on Dec 30, 2018 11:59:42 GMT
Isn't one doing a demonstration service?
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 30, 2018 12:26:57 GMT
The 378s are I think the only viable electric stock for a number of reasons: They are obviously cleared for use on the line, they have in-cab CCTV, depot staff know how to maintain them, and they are not needed by anyone other than TfL. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that Goblin drivers are part of a common pool with NLL drivers so they already know how to drive the trains. Drivers and depot staff would need (re)training on 313s, they would need guards and/or qualified platform staff (which TfL would have to recruit) due to lack of CCTV, and they would need to be cleared for use on the line. Chris my thought was to use the 313s on the DC line and use the displaced 378s on the Goblin. Sounds like there are no spare 313s yet though! |
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