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Post by d7666 on Jul 16, 2024 12:21:09 GMT
depots are to be reconstructed to suit the new trains, so presumably Waterloo depot will be similarly modified within the restrictions of its current site. Or the local W&C maintenance arranged without a need to lift the entire unit, but - when needed - split it. There will be a business case for this - the balance of rebuilding a large depot for a large fleet against a small depot for a small fleet. "thou shall not split" is not the 11th commandment - merely best practice for the majority. The cars are seperable - even the non wheeled ones - they are not permanently attached for ever and ever - a work around will be possible as I doubt a complete W&C train lifting jacking set up would be economic there, even if there was the space. w.r.t. to delivery, I see no reason why they can't be delivered split and assembled on site - indeed IMHO they almost certainly will have to be delivered split; even if a hole in the ground big enough to take a complete W&C unit were available, the logistics of getting something that size to site above ground and then lifting complete must be impractical. Not impossible, just economically and logistically impractical. The non-wheeled cars simply require some form of jig to support them for local assembly into a set - then that jig remains within the depot as part of the permanent maintenance should they ever need it.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Jul 25, 2024 20:04:05 GMT
The W. & City version will only have three wheeled cars to carry the equipment spread over five cars on the Piccadilly Line. etc. etc. The Picc & Bakerloo depots are to be reconstructed to suit the new trains, so presumably Waterloo depot will be similarly modified within the restrictions of its current site. I mis-read that as the Waterloo and City line having three-wheeled cars. I imagined a reliant robin on the Underground. At least there would be a middle rail for the third wheel to travel along, but it would get a bit bumpy over pointwork! Yes - I know that I got that wrong, but I enjoyed the thoughts.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 26, 2024 7:09:22 GMT
I think all train drivers should be paid more.
Balancing such great long things on those skinny little rails for mile after mile can’t be easy.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 26, 2024 15:26:41 GMT
The W. & City version will only have three wheeled cars to carry the equipment spread over five cars on the Piccadilly Line. etc. etc. The Picc & Bakerloo depots are to be reconstructed to suit the new trains, so presumably Waterloo depot will be similarly modified within the restrictions of its current site. I mis-read that as the Waterloo and City line having three-wheeled cars. I imagined a reliant robin on the Underground. At least there would be a middle rail for the third wheel to travel along, but it would get a bit bumpy over pointwork! Yes - I know that I got that wrong, but I enjoyed the thoughts. While I am aware of the current 'plan' - inverted commas given present funding issues is little more than a paper aspiration - I am going to predict W&C either gets a NTFL stock variant composed entirely of conventional two bogie per vehicle NTFL half units (which eliminate the totally wheelless cars) - or something totally different, so different that no-one knows of it (in the public domain) yet.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 26, 2024 20:44:40 GMT
Sounds expensive to design a train and then build only five of them. (The rounded figure was ten new trains.)
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Post by d7666 on Jul 26, 2024 22:04:42 GMT
Sounds expensive to design a train and then build only five of them. (The rounded figure was ten new trains.) Heathrow terminal 5 transit is only 10 trains. W&C could be turned into a UTO people mover type line; if not UTO (GoA4) then DTO (GoA3). I'D not be surprised if in time something like that comes about.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 27, 2024 7:39:49 GMT
If the W&C gets a Piccadilly Line train with a pair of motor cars and intermediate cars missing, they will only have cab cars and the middle motor car on wheels. This site shows that middle motor 2 cars may carry deicing or track recording equipment, which would not be needed on the W&C, leaving room for other items only carried on the motor 1 cars of the Piccadilly trains. The motor 1 cars carry a battery and auxiliary power converter, the latter also on the middle motor car. If there is insufficient room for these on the cab cars, then a second set will need to be fitted to the middle car to provide redundancy.
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Post by alpinejohn on Jul 27, 2024 7:51:19 GMT
Roughly 100 years back the 1924 British Empire Exhibition at Wembley operated a "Never stop Railway" which I often thought could be a perfect match for the Waterloo and City route. Carriages operated in a continuous loop slowing to barely walking pace at boarding and alighting points before travelling at higher speed once past the platforms. I realise Health & Safety and accessibility considerations would rule out this very basic approach now BUT it sort of proved the concept and operated for several years reliably carrying vast numbers around the showgrounds.
The more I read posts in this thread it seems extant constraints on the Waterloo & City will require major expense to rebuild the depot and costly messing with the existing New Tube for London design for a handful of units. That in turn suggests the Waterloo and City route is going to be faced with another protracted shut down.
It seems ripe for completely abandoning any ideas of cobbling together another tube train variant and instead consider a more radical solution such as replacing the Waterloo and City with a fully automated (unmanned) service possibly on the lines of the recent DART system at Luton Airport.
Whilst the DART platforms have platform edge doors the stations are also staffed to oversee safe boarding and alighting. Meanwhile the shuttle cars are normally unmanned and once again prove that unmanned vehicles can carry large numbers of passengers and luggage day after day without anyone dying.
Perhaps this is the ideal time for TFL to cash in that IOU from DFT/HM Treasury to prove that they really are happy to fund any transport solution which delivers a fully unmanned service.
I know this is heresey on this forum but over in Paris their second busiest metro line - Line 14 is already operating with fully unmanned trains, and doubtless conversion of other lines to full unmanned service is on the cards as existing rolling stock and infrastructure comes up for major renewal.
MODs please note I suspect this post and any replies needs to split off from the New Tube For London thread.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 27, 2024 8:25:56 GMT
I know this is heresey on this forum but over in Paris their second busiest metro line - Line 14 is already operating with fully unmanned trains, and doubtless conversion of other lines to full unmanned service is on the cards as existing rolling stock and infrastructure comes up for major renewal. I think most people agree that point to point lines (that do not share track with other lines) are viable candidates for unpersoned operation. (Although an escape path would probably be required.) It's just a matter of cost/benefit tempered with political considerations that are outwith the remit of these forums.
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Post by starlight73 on Jul 27, 2024 11:14:08 GMT
I’m not clear if there’s other UTO systems which are a narrow bore tube tunnel with no escape route. Paris line 14 is double-track tunnels if I remember right (despite being deep underground).
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Post by d7666 on Jul 27, 2024 11:35:44 GMT
I’m not clear if there’s other UTO systems which are a narrow bore tube tunnel with no escape route. Paris line 14 is double-track tunnels if I remember right (despite being deep underground). I did include DTO in my post.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 27, 2024 13:38:16 GMT
Lots of detail in this FoI release including delivery photo on slide 20 with three cars on a long, long trailer! That has a wheeled car at each end, but the middle section must have had two unwheeled cars at the outer ends. How were they supported on their truck? Anyone seen a photo of that?
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Post by f73a on Jul 27, 2024 14:14:49 GMT
Presumably the same way they're supported on the rails.
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gefw
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Post by gefw on Jul 27, 2024 17:37:22 GMT
Lots of detail in this FoI release including delivery photo on slide 20 with three cars on a long, long trailer! That has a wheeled car at each end, but the middle section must have had two unwheeled cars at the outer ends. How were they supported on their truck? Anyone seen a photo of that? The mechanical design of the coupling between the cars seems to be shrouded in secrecy/IPR (but must have been assessed/assured by now as being fit for purpose). The coupling to achieve walkthrough carriages was innovative, but now to also to support the weight and stabilise the "unwheeled" carriage is another realm - no wonder the track has to be of a very high standard
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Post by brigham on Jul 27, 2024 19:09:32 GMT
Seems to be a potential (and unmitigated) weakness.
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gefw
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Post by gefw on Jul 27, 2024 19:38:03 GMT
Seems to be a potential (and unmitigated) weakness. Concur that the coupling probably introduces new issues/failure modes (but previous posts have mentioned it may be based on previous designs) - Those in the Inner circle of the project team will presumably have already seen or been involved in the design cycle and seen the mitigations & any residual risk - this will duly be presented to the Asset Engineer as part of the Assurance package.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 27, 2024 20:25:04 GMT
Presumably the same way they're supported on the rails. They are normally supported by the wheeled cars either side, but in a train split into three, they will be on other lorries.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 27, 2024 21:35:06 GMT
Lots of detail in this FoI release including delivery photo on slide 20 with three cars on a long, long trailer! That has a wheeled car at each end, but the middle section must have had two unwheeled cars at the outer ends. How were they supported on their truck? Anyone seen a photo of that? Interesting question, but I'll predict they will have jigs for that; it won't be /that/ complex a thing to devise, organisations like Siemens usually can work out such things. Such a jig is the kind of thing that could be used during delivery then later utIlised by LU no if but when they need to split a unit, which, at some point, they will. I will question though w.r.t. W&C (always assuming it gets ntfl stock) how such a long road load would get anywhere near Waterloo to get into the drain => they will be split => there will be a method of splitting => there will be jigs to do it <= can be the delivery jigs. _ Different question : slide 15 the three cars shown are DM1 - IM1 - KM1 - Don't think this gen has been seen before - Any idea on what the 'K' might mean ? And now - bearing in mind this is Siemens - so they /might/ be German terms if that is a German drawing - even what the 'I' stands for ? My basic German can not come up with any appropriate words though. Methinks an assumption so far has been 'I' = intermediate; now I (pun intended) question that because of the 'K'.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 27, 2024 21:43:27 GMT
I believe KM and IM stands for Key Motor and InterMediate car respectively
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Post by burkitt on Jul 27, 2024 22:38:34 GMT
...photo on slide 20 with three cars on a long, long trailer! That has a wheeled car at each end, but the middle section must have had two unwheeled cars at the outer ends. How were they supported on their truck? The three car formation on a low loader was on its way to the Vienna Arsenal climate chamber for testing, shown in the photos on the following slide. The rest of that train had not yet been formed together and the other six cars remained in the factory. This will probably be the only time a 24TS leaves the factory in anything other than a full train length configuration, and the only time one will travel by road.
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Post by burkitt on Jul 27, 2024 22:40:31 GMT
I believe KM and IM stands for Key Motor and InterMediate car respectively Yes, Driving Motor, Key Motor and Intermediate cars.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 28, 2024 0:17:21 GMT
I believe KM and IM stands for Key Motor and InterMediate car respectively ta 'key' meaning key to or of what ? It's not clockwork ![B-|](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/notamused.png) is it i.e. where you wind it up ? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) I mean, I know we are into energy saving these days but a t/op winding one up each trip is going a bit far and I have no doubt the t/u might have something to say on the matter. ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 28, 2024 7:49:38 GMT
My guess is that a key motor is like a keystone - i.e. it supports the structure (in this case the intermediate cars).
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Post by billbedford on Jul 28, 2024 8:38:28 GMT
The coupling to achieve walkthrough carriages was innovative, but now to also to support the weight and stabilise the "unwheeled" carriage is another realm - no wonder the track has to be of a very high standard Mr Gresley managed to do this c1920.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 28, 2024 12:10:04 GMT
I believe the innovative part is not suspended carriages per se, but tube gauge walk-through suspended carriages. As far as I am aware, even conventionally wheeled walk-through tube-gauge trains were not considered a realistic prospect even in theory until the 1990s.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 28, 2024 15:13:57 GMT
My guess is that a key motor is like a keystone - i.e. it supports the structure (in this case the intermediate cars). Yeh that interpretation occurred to me ,........ But then again we are talking LU here ;o)
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Post by d7666 on Jul 28, 2024 20:48:41 GMT
I believe the innovative part is not suspended carriages per se, but tube gauge walk-through suspended carriages. As far as I am aware, even conventionally wheeled walk-through tube-gauge trains were not considered a realistic prospect even in theory until the 1990s. I think it possible there was a change in legislation, TSI or earlier equivalent that allows it now but previously did not. I kind of vaguely remember reading something on those lines from an Innotrans Berlin exhibition report. Something about car end walls structures previously had to be more than a tubular pipe without end panels. Certainly if you look at late 20C main line accident reports there was a lot of concern and criticism of car end integrity and probably this had the knock on effect of not developing tubular concept cars as early as the could have been. ISTR there was a main line EMU type introduced in Germany in 1990s that was the first to follow the new legislation. That is not to say those were the first walk through trains anywhere - but first to adopt the new rules. I suspect you are right in moving from there to making a tube train out of tubular pipes took time; it would be a significant develop risk for any supplier to commit to it - it not as if a London deep tube sized train has a market elsewhere that would help spread the start up costs. If one considers that only what is now 2009TS post dated those changes, and that type itself would have been on drawing board say 2-3 years before ordering, it is a not long period to have developed a tubular tube train. And then the lag before NTFL was ordered.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 28, 2024 22:23:17 GMT
I recall reading somewhere (possibly on this forum) that Metronet were incentivised by the PPP contract to order a very conventional design for the 2009 stock. A walkthrough train at that point would have probably been technologically possible (I don't know about legislation) but reliability would be unproven. I don't think one with walkthrough and]/i] suspended carriages would have been possible then, but I'm far from an expert.
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Post by ijmad on Jul 28, 2024 22:39:36 GMT
I recall reading somewhere (possibly on this forum) that Metronet were incentivised by the PPP contract to order a very conventional design for the 2009 stock. A walkthrough train at that point would have probably been technologically possible (I don't know about legislation) but reliability would be unproven. I don't think one with walkthrough and]/i] suspended carriages would have been possible then, but I'm far from an expert. The 'Space Train' concept, with smaller bogies, shorter/wider walkthrough carriages, all double doors, and aircon has been talked about since 1995. While the early concepts didn't feature suspended carriages, they did feature carriages sharing bogies. www.railwaygazette.com/metros/space-train-to-boost-tube-capacity/30120.articleJust no-one was willing to take the risk for the 2009 stock, certainly not the sort of thing a PPP company would be willing to do.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 29, 2024 0:32:09 GMT
Slide 14 shows new trains have inter-bogie centre up to 13.6 metres compared to 11.1 metres on current trains, which are already longer than standard due to longer cars. This must be mentioned for track-circuit occupation purposes. To reduce the gap at curved platforms, the pivot point must be at the inter-car connection, also to reduce sideways motion in the gangway. That is where the magic happens!
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