Heritage / or special trains in the future

[taylor]

Over what parts of the LU network and under what conditions could occasional special trains be permitted once SMAs are all implemented? How could 'Steam on the Met', a multi-line 1938-Stock excursion or Sarah Siddons hauled coaching stock function? Is it intended to fit heritage equipment so it could work? Has anyone costed that or is it simply impossible? Will trip-cock fitted locos from other operators (do they still exist?) be allowed on SSR when there are no trips? (Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere)

[tubetraveller]

Currently, Heritage trains would only be permitted to operate on the section between Harrow on the Hill and Amersham via the fast lines, as these will retain train stops and colour-light signals for the benefit of Chiltern services.
From what I understand, there is currently no plan to fit heritage trains with the new signalling equipment as it would cost around £1m each.
The current plan is to run heritage trains with a battery loco at each end, but this does add extra complications

[rincew1nd]

Surely they can also run on the sections of the District Line where National Rail trains also operate?

[Chris L]

Apr 17, 2021 8:39:45 GMT rincew1nd said:

Surely they can also run on the sections of the District Line where National Rail trains also operate?

How do they get there? Such a short distance and in the way of the normal service.

[goldenarrow]

There are no currently plans to make London Undergrounds Heritage Fleet 4LM compliant.

The 1938 stock unit will still be able to access the Uxbridge Branch relatively easily thanks to the retention of legacy-style signalling (for the time being) for Piccadilly line trains.

The 4TC would still be able to hauled over parts of the SSR such as the diesel railtour (trip cocks fitted) from Marylebone to Quainton Road via the MET Mainline. Likewise the same would in theory still be possible if the District line were to be accessed from the Network Rail side of the connection provided it met Network Rail standards.

MET 1 although not owned by LU or the LTM was due to come out of traffic in 2021 as its boiler ticket was close to expiry. Fitment for 4LM would not only be prohibitively expensive, it would likely lead to significant aesthetic changes.

[Chris M]

Another option would be to run trips when the line is closed to normal trains. Obviously this would come with it's own set of organisational and logistical issues and would also incur costs (probably very significant ones), but file it under "extremely unlikely" rather than "impossible".

[Deleted]

Apr 15, 2021 19:27:28 GMT taylor said:

Over what parts of the LU network and under what conditions could occasional special trains be permitted once SMAs are all implemented? How could 'Steam on the Met', a multi-line 1938-Stock excursion or Sarah Siddons hauled coaching stock function? Is it intended to fit heritage equipment so it could work? Has anyone costed that or is it simply impossible? Will trip-cock fitted locos from other operators (do they still exist?) be allowed on SSR when there are no trips? (Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere)

Not all SMA’s will be implemented on the current project

[spsmiler]

I'm also wondering about the Q stock and Standard stock heritage trains. I suppose that funding is the issue.

[alpinejohn]

I am sorry to say in the current financial climate I think Heritage train operations on LUL metals have pretty much had their day.

Like it or not the world increasingly operates in a silo mentality with budgets set accordingly.

The day job for LUL and its managers is to offer efficient, safe and convenient transport for the masses. Whilst signalling systems were common across lines it was possible to round up enough volunteers to operate the odd special/heritage run for enthusiasts making use of slack in weekend timetables.

Sadly now lines have effectively incompatible signalling systems and the idea of running specials across several lines moves from the inconvenient to downright unwelcome category, and worse still no one has any budget to enable them.

Yes you could possibly do something token - like allocating a siding at Acton for 38 stock to shuttle around on, or operating some sort of midnight special in a full line possession well after all regular services have cleared the route, but the days of daytime runs seem over.

If we assume life and passenger demand will return post covid then the Croxley Link decision has probably eliminated the only realistic alternative base to Acton for cheaply creating an alternative base for the heritage fleet at Watford, where they could be stored, visited and potentially operated on shuttle runs from Watford via the rarely used North Curve to Chesham.

Sadly operating heritage services can never be cost effective, but they can ensure some of the heritage fleet is kept in serviceable condition rather than quietly decaying away largely out of sight in Acton.

[taylor]

Don’t want to wander off the topic (I started!), but ‘heritage’ is one part of the glue which holds the network together. Examples: the District 150 events and small exhibits, which seemed to go on for 2 maybe three years, the team pride in individual station exhibits, the gardens, the historic posters and photographs some (of you?) staff put up all over the network. LT / LUL has always had a team spirit which makes the place special. Just last Tuesday I almost stumbled over one such creation: A potted history of the D-Stock alongside A Potted history of the S-Stock, all growing quite nicely at Hammersmith District. Maybe someone on here had their trowel in that.

Correct me if I`m wrong, but from the above replies and elsewhere on the board: Bakerloo will remain electro-pneumatically signaled for at least another 10 years, the Piccadilly, western outer reaches of the District, Met mainline north of Harrow and from there to Rayner’s Lane and beyond at least for the next five. That gives us a fair chunk of rail.

Did someone mention that some battery locos have been CBTC equipped and could be used to ‘pilot’ the 1938 train where required? More possibilities? But why? See perhaps below:

Fantasy section: So, given that lot, is it totally beyond imagination to run an annual Red-Nose-Rover where the deficit between running cost and receipts could be crowd-funded (if TfL or GLA cannot) and where at at every terminus: Uxbridge, Cockfosters, Richmond, Ealing, maybe a Terminal road at Baker Street, ticket holders would bail-out with collecting cans for Red-Nose-day. After all what has a ruddier nose than the 1938 stock?

PS. Does Bakerloo 1972 stock ever leave the line for overhaul work at Neasden / elsewhere? What is it's standard route to get to the rest of the network? An answer thereto might present another route for the above special. Thanks.

[goldenarrow]

Apr 18, 2021 10:29:58 GMT taylor said:

PS. Does Bakerloo 1972 stock ever leave the line for overhaul work at Neasden / elsewhere? What is it's standard route to get to the rest of the network? An answer thereto might present another route for the above special. Thanks.

The 1972 stock recently made trips to/from Acton Works via Lambeth North (reverse), Baker Street (connection to Jubilee), Neasden (connection to Metropolitan) and Ruislip (reverse). The section over the Jubilee line had to be done out of traffic hours since the 72 stock are not ATO compatible and thus traversed this section as a Non-Communicating Train (NCT).

There is precedent of this being used for a railtour with the Central Line Centenarian using Cravens Heritage Trains 1960 stock unit back in 2000. With the added complication of several lines now using different incompatible variants of computerised signaling systems, running out of traffic hours may be the only cost effective solution for the time being for the likes of the 38 stock once the last islands of conventional signaling are dispensed with.

[t697]

Apr 18, 2021 10:29:58 GMT taylor said:

1. Did someone mention that some battery locos have been CBTC equipped and could be used to ‘pilot’ the 1938 train where required? More possibilities?

2. PS. Does Bakerloo 1972 stock ever leave the line for overhaul work at Neasden / elsewhere? What is it's standard route to get to the rest of the network?

1. Yes the locos are all CTBC equipped now if not all commissioned.  Piloting '38TS probably needs new coupling adaptors or match wagons.  Maybe someone's working on that.

2. '72TS transfer route was described in a post above, but of course that gets more difficult when the Met line CTBC is commissioned north of Finchley Road, first to Preston Road but then the rest of the northern areas.

I wonder whether the attraction of 38TS or other heritage stock for an actual trip or photo opportunity is so reduced by being loco piloted that it's not attractive enough any more.

[taylor]

Apr 18, 2021 12:24:42 GMT t697 said:

Apr 18, 2021 10:29:58 GMT taylor said:

1. Did someone mention that some battery locos have been CBTC equipped and could be used to ‘pilot’ the 1938 train where required? More possibilities?

2. PS. Does Bakerloo 1972 stock ever leave the line for overhaul work at Neasden / elsewhere? What is it's standard route to get to the rest of the network?

1. Yes the locos are all CTBC equipped now if not all commissioned.  Piloting '38TS probably needs new coupling adaptors or match wagons.  Maybe someone's working on that.

2. '72TS transfer route was described in a post above, but of course that gets more difficult when the Met line CTBC is commissioned north of Finchley Road, first to Preston Road but then the rest of the northern areas.

I wonder whether the attraction of 38TS or other heritage stock for an actual trip or photo opportunity is so reduced by being loco piloted that it's not attractive enough any more.

Thanks! Agree on the aesthetics!

Does anyone know at what line speeds the battery locos can operate? Even with CBTC, if they're limited to a significant percentage less than that for the stock operating on the line where the battery loco would be needed as pilot, that could be an inconvenience too. As to where, perhaps on a trip from Richmond to Uxbridge via Aldgate / Finchley Road, then the loco would be required (I think) between Hammersmith and Harrow. Coupling on / detaching at those points should be possible.

Also is the link between the Northern Line and Piccadilly Line at Kings X authorised for passenger traffic?

[davidb]

Apr 18, 2021 13:22:53 GMT taylor said:

Apr 18, 2021 12:24:42 GMT t697 said:

1. Yes the locos are all CTBC equipped now if not all commissioned.  Piloting '38TS probably needs new coupling adaptors or match wagons.  Maybe someone's working on that.

2. '72TS transfer route was described in a post above, but of course that gets more difficult when the Met line CTBC is commissioned north of Finchley Road, first to Preston Road but then the rest of the northern areas.

I wonder whether the attraction of 38TS or other heritage stock for an actual trip or photo opportunity is so reduced by being loco piloted that it's not attractive enough any more.

Thanks! Agree on the aesthetics!

Does anyone know at what line speeds the battery locos can operate? Even with CBTC, if they're limited to a significant percentage less than that for the stock operating on the line where the battery loco would be needed as pilot, that could be an inconvenience too. As to where, perhaps on a trip from Richmond to Uxbridge via Aldgate / Finchley Road, then the loco would be required (I think) between Hammersmith and Harrow. Coupling on / detaching at those points should be possible.

Also is the link between the Northern Line and Piccadilly Line at Kings X authorised for passenger traffic?

I went on the morning run of the Battery Rover railtour on 02/10/1988 which is described here:
www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/881002lr.htm

This ran in normal traffic hours with two battery locos topping and tailing a rake of Gatwick Express Mk2 coaches so I'm guessing that line speed wasn't a problem.

As for the Kings Cross Loop between the Northern and Piccadilly, I did it on a railtour in the late 70s and I'm sure that other tours have done it much more recently.

[taylor]

Apr 18, 2021 14:58:56 GMT davidb said:

Apr 18, 2021 13:22:53 GMT taylor said:

Thanks! Agree on the aesthetics!

Does anyone know at what line speeds the battery locos can operate? Even with CBTC, if they're limited to a significant percentage less than that for the stock operating on the line where the battery loco would be needed as pilot, that could be an inconvenience too. As to where, perhaps on a trip from Richmond to Uxbridge via Aldgate / Finchley Road, then the loco would be required (I think) between Hammersmith and Harrow. Coupling on / detaching at those points should be possible.

Also is the link between the Northern Line and Piccadilly Line at Kings X authorised for passenger traffic?

I went on the morning run of the Battery Rover railtour on 02/10/1988 which is described here:
www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/881002lr.htm

This ran in normal traffic hours with two battery locos topping and tailing a rake of Gatwick Express Mk2 coaches so I'm guessing that line speed wasn't a problem.

As for the Kings Cross Loop between the Northern and Piccadilly, I did it on a railtour in the late 70s and I'm sure that other tours have done it much more recently.

Thanks. I wonder if the powers that be would allow that today. Any insight anyone?

[taylor]

I've included details of the Nostalgia specials run by the New York Transit museum, which may be of interest, here:
districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/32179/heritage-special-new-york

[t697]

LUL battery loco speed limit is 30mi/h and in ATC signalling there is continuous automatic enforcement. So a train hauled or piloted by such locos would be proceeding at a pace comparable to UK heritage railways.

[jimbo]

Are battery locos under CBTC still manually driven, or do they press two start buttons?

[t697]

Apr 18, 2021 19:33:34 GMT jimbo said:

Are battery locos under CBTC still manually driven, or do they press two start buttons?

Manually driven. No Auto driving fitted.

[brigham]

Apr 18, 2021 19:36:10 GMT t697 said:

Apr 18, 2021 19:33:34 GMT jimbo said:

Are battery locos under CBTC still manually driven, or do they press two start buttons?

Manually driven. No Auto driving fitted.

In which case a portable adaptor pack can be devised to give the driver the information necessary to drive manually.
It's been done elsewhere, it isn't new.

[Chris L]

Apr 19, 2021 7:47:30 GMT brigham said:

Apr 18, 2021 19:36:10 GMT t697 said:

Manually driven. No Auto driving fitted.

In which case a portable adaptor pack can be devised to give the driver the information necessary to drive manually.
It's been done elsewhere, it isn't new.

At what cost? Such events cost money too. Full costs have never been recovered.

Highly unlikely in the current state of TfL finances.

[brigham]

Yes, the same negative arguments were applied...

[t697]

Apr 19, 2021 7:47:30 GMT brigham said:

Apr 18, 2021 19:36:10 GMT t697 said:

Manually driven. No Auto driving fitted.

In which case a portable adaptor pack can be devised to give the driver the information necessary to drive manually.
It's been done elsewhere, it isn't new.

Whichever way one does it, the scheme needs the same high integrity as a fully ATC fitted train if you are running on a fully ATC section of line. If there is still lineside signalling and trainstops, a train could operate with those, fitted with tripcocks.
The CBTC on LUL involves a secure radio link, trusted tachos and accelerometer. Annoyingly complex for a temporary fit.

[roythebus]

Seems like there's more down sides to automatic control than benefits. all this for what, an additional 2tph in places? and a total loss of flexibility.

[brigham]

Apr 19, 2021 13:44:55 GMT roythebus said:

Seems like there's more down sides to automatic control than benefits. all this for what, an additional 2tph in places? and a total loss of flexibility.

An additional 2tph in an area already over-provided in comparison with other British cities; obscenely so, in many cases.

For LU, loss of flexibility has long been treated as a goal, rather than a setback.

[jimbo]

There is no funding for new Bakerloo signaling, but transfers to and from the line are not easy, and often done by road. The Picc also has no funding for new signals, so it might appear simple to shuttle along the whole line from Acton Museum. However, plenty of engineering closures will be needed for Met line resignalling on Uxbridge branch, and on whole Picc line for adaption for new longer trains. The new trains will feature cab TV for platform monitoring, which needs setting up. Many signals will need resighting and resiting. When the new trains finally arrive in about four years time, then maybe a start can be made on new signalling installation. So the upgrade will need lots of engineering closures which may prevent the 38TS from doing tours for some years.

[cso]

I thought at one point there was plans for heritage stock to be included in the 4LM work, or was I imagining that? It may, of course, have been descoped for budget reasons too!

[jimbo]

Apr 21, 2021 19:16:13 GMT cso said:

I thought at one point there was plans for heritage stock to be included in the 4LM work, or was I imagining that? It may, of course, have been descoped for budget reasons too!

Correct. They were listed in the 2011 Bombardier contract that collapsed, but not in the current Thales contract. There were six heritage trains to be equipped - which? 38TS, Q stock, how define a train? i.e. Sarah Siddons one cab with Met No.1 as a train?

[cso]

Ah, good... at least I wasn't imaging things then :-)

[MoreToJack]

Apr 21, 2021 21:43:33 GMT jimbo said:

Apr 21, 2021 19:16:13 GMT cso said:

I thought at one point there was plans for heritage stock to be included in the 4LM work, or was I imagining that? It may, of course, have been descoped for budget reasons too!

Correct. They were listed in the 2011 Bombardier contract that collapsed, but not in the current Thales contract. There were six heritage trains to be equipped - which? 38TS, Q stock, how define a train? i.e. Sarah Siddons one cab with Met No.1 as a train?

The scope was only ever for LUL-owned vehicles (and possibly Cravens Heritage Trains’ 60TS? I forget), as opposed to those on hire, and was primarily to support heritage operations away from the interoperable areas.

Sarah, 38TS, Q stock and Standard stock certainly covers the majority.