Removing unnecessary and pointless announcements

[Tom]

The older Thorn and GEC Dot Matrix Indicators were pretty good, with the GEC being better than the Thorn in my opinion. The Ferrograph signs from the mid 1990s were ok, but these new ones being installed are terrible from more than about 5 metres away.

That said, the best I found were the Poltech ones on the DLR. Too bad that Poltech have ceased trading.

[cudsn15]

I concur about the awful DMI's. Being short sighted most of them are totally useless to me as most of my entrance and exit points on a tube are nowhere near a display so it's just a yellow/orange mess in the distance. The few older ones I see on the Bakerloo are much more legible - even if I can't actually read the letters/numbers - I can still work them out as they are clearly defined and don't glare.

[class411]

We seem to have drifted into the "Announcement/Display Transmission" thread territory, but to stay off topic for a moment, would it not be a great idea for TFL to commission an app for passengers?

I'm not sure of the practicality/reliability of a mobile determining which train it is in, but once that was done (even manually*), there is probably already sufficient data available from the API (Application Programming Interface) to do all that's needed.

The user could select on screen or in ear notifications so both hearing and sight passengers would be accommodated.

If done properly it could be an excellent resource, providing details of delays and re-routing in the event of suspensions, as well as normal navigation.



* It would only require each carriage to have a set number displayed, and a "Set <n>" message (ironic considering the thread title). If such an app proved successful I'm sure it would be possible to implement some way to do it automatically.

[Chris M]

Each car already has a unique number, so that makes part of the task easy. A prominent QR code and number near each doorway would be an easy way to communicate to an app which car (and thus, with fixed-formation trains) which train a person is travelling in. The difficult bit is translating that to a location on the network.
While it would be relatively easy to program in what services is unit is scheduled to run, but service disruption and reformations would make that wrong. I think I'm right in saying that trackernet (or some similar internal system) knows the location and identify of every train. If so (and if it's reliable) then the necessary information already exists, and the issue is just getting that to the app - wifi and mobile data are the obvious methods but these are not available everywhere but, AIUI, the long term plan is to have 100% coverage over the network.

If this could be made to work, then a side benefit would be an easy (and discrete) way to report problems with the train or passengers to TfL/BTP as appropriate as the time, location and car number are all already known.

[class411]

Jan 29, 2022 10:57:23 GMT Chris M said:

Each car already has a unique number, so that makes part of the task easy. A prominent QR code and number near each doorway would be an easy way to communicate to an app which car (and thus, with fixed-formation trains) which train a person is travelling in. The difficult bit is translating that to a location on the network.

QR code is an excellent idea.

If LU implemented such a system, it would probably be possible, eventually, to use RFID.

Clearly, ensuring that each passenger ('s phone) can know with absolute certainty which train they are on is fundamental.

[aslefshrugged]

Trackernet is nowhere near reliable enough, sometimes trains can be renumbered without it registering and occasionally it will get destinations wrong

[class411]

Jan 29, 2022 13:08:53 GMT aslefshrugged said:

Trackernet is nowhere near reliable enough, sometimes trains can be renumbered without it registering and occasionally it will get destinations wrong

Also, in the past, I've seen it show trains going round and round in the middle of Holland Park.

An app such as I suggested would obviously need a completely reliable API to be useful to passengers.

[aslefshrugged]

That's something I've never seen on Trackernet and I use it every working day to keep tabs on my next train (it beats standing in the rain, etc. at the end of a platform waiting for the train to turn up).

When you take into consideration that the majority of passengers are only occasional users of the Tube who might not bother to download an app before travelling (or might not even know about the app) or that an estimated 18% of the UK population don't have a smart phone I don't think an App that requires complete reliable information relayed to it would be value for money when we already have perfectly good PA systems on every train and station

[class411]

Jan 29, 2022 13:50:39 GMT aslefshrugged said:

That's something I've never seen on Trackernet and I use it every working day to keep tabs on my next train (it beats standing in the rain, etc. at the end of a platform waiting for the train to turn up).

It was some years ago. There is a post about it here somewhere.

When you take into consideration that the majority of passengers are only occasional users of the Tube who might not bother to download an app before travelling (or might not even know about the app) or that an estimated 18% of the UK population don't have a smart phone I don't think an App that requires complete reliable information relayed to it would be value for money ...

I really don't think that saying x% of people don't do/have something, particularly when x is quite small, is a good reason for not doing something. A lot more than 18% of people don't have a car, but we still build roads. More seriously, there are a great many essential activities that require a mobile if you don't want to have to go through hoops to accomplish them. There are some web sites that will not let you progress unless you enter a valid mobile number.

And the fact that some people wouldn't download an app is pretty much irrelevant. Some people have earphones in their ears, so the PA announcements aren't much use to them. No matter what the interface, you can't force people to use it.

when we already have perfectly good PA systems on every train and station

Except that is isn't 'perfectly good', is it?

Even if the message at source is clear, the PA is often muffled (by acoustics) or drowned out by extraneous noise.

And an app could be dynamically configured for each customer/journey. If a line is suspended it could display the optimal alternative. If there are delays on any part of the journey, the passenger could be alerted and(possibly) given an idea of the length of the delay.

[dm1]

The SBB have an app that does pretty much exactly what you are describing and works very well. I think it uses a combination of GPS, mobile data and bluetooth beacons on the trains to make it work.

www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/mobile-apps/sbb-inclusive.html

Really the only hurdle to making a similar app for TfL is feeding it reliable data. Unfortunately that has been a problem for decades and the fact that there are numerous, old, incompatible systems involved means it would probably cost a fair amount to implement reliably.

[Deleted]

Jan 29, 2022 0:40:24 GMT dm1 said:

DMI placement and specification are also a real problem on LU in my experience of using it, probably a much bigger problem than audio annoucements.

Why dot matrix displays with line sizes that are clearly too small even by TfL's own standards are still being installed is beyond me. Particularly where they have been used to replace older DMIs that were much larger and much more legible. High quality, well-designed, large LCD/TFT/OLED displays should be the standard these days, but I suspect the Elizabeth Line will be one of the few places to have something resembling this when it opens.

I would say the the issues on LU with announcements and passenger information are somewhat different to those on NR, just because TfL's information is generally better already, and the nature of the lines mostly having consistent stopping patterns.

I am personally a fan of the Central Line platform indicators, although these have been replaced with the newer versions - they remain at a number of stations. The text is readable, even if they are at the other end of the platform. Can't say the same about the newer indicators.

[spsmiler]

Jan 29, 2022 21:06:39 GMT @tom5ki7 said:

I am personally a fan of the Central Line platform indicators, although these have been replaced with the newer versions - they remain at a number of stations. The text is readable, even if they are at the other end of the platform. Can't say the same about the newer indicators.

I too very much prefer these to anything that has come out more recently. Not just because of the clarity of the display, the size of the font, the readability of the text from afar along the platform but also because I like the multi-colour aspect. Orange and green.

I really do not know why they have not become standard throughout the network - maybe there is a reason why different displays are being introduced, I do not know.