Trains in the snow

[xtmw]

Since the approach to winter is slowly coming, I was wondering what the procedure is for trains in the snow? Do LU run a reduced timetable? Trains would obviously be in PM/CM... but what else happens?

I realise snow can cause a lot of point failures...

[towerman]

There are trains booked to spray deciding fluid in the timetables also if there is a strong snow & ice warning deicing trains run in engineering hours.There’s also P Way gangs that deice tracks in depots.

[stapler]

How long ago did we last get considerable falls of snow? 2010?

[Tom]

2018 - the 'Beast from the East'.

[hobbayne]

I consider myself lucky. After 34 years on the trains I have never had to use the ice scraper. Although it came close a few times. 😊

[spsmiler]

Sometimes there is also a need for welders to rescue trains - especially at stations or signals where trains are regularly delayed - because whilst the train was stationary one or more power collection shoes which are experiencing a sub-optimal contact with a live rail has managed to weld itself to that live rail/

[seaeagle]

Aug 24, 2022 13:44:54 GMT hobbayne said:

I consider myself lucky. After 34 years on the trains I have never had to use the ice scraper. Although it came close a few times. 😊

Never had to use one myself in 33 years, mind you not really much reason to on the Vic

[towerman]

Back in the late 70s a lot of the Hainault depot staff who lived at Loughton/Debden used to catch the 07:00 shuttle at Woodford one day it was snowing heavily and the train got gapped between Chigwell & Grange Hill,had the sight of about 20 depot staff taking turns to use the ice scrapers.This was pre health & safety and certification.

[rincew1nd]

There is a story of an icy day told by our founder District Dave here:

districtdave.co.uk/html/ice_tale.html

[t697]

Rails in sidings last for a very long time. Trains are empty and at low speed and very few trains per day per siding. Even in the snow, reverting to the thread title...

[Tom]

Aug 24, 2022 15:55:34 GMT spsmiler said:

Sometimes there is also a need for welders to rescue trains - especially at stations or signals where trains are regularly delayed - because whilst the train was stationary one or more power collection shoes which are experiencing a sub-optimal contact with a live rail has managed to weld itself to that live rail/

Any examples? I would have thought the current being drawn would have blown fuses before the shoe could weld itself.

[spsmiler]

Aug 26, 2022 12:46:42 GMT Tom said:

Any examples? I would have thought the current being drawn would have blown fuses before the shoe could weld itself.

Sorry no - I have read about this happening but never experienced it myself.

What I have seen was continuous arcing the whole time whilst the train was calling at a station - this was in the days of A stock trains, when calling at Liverpool Street the negative power shoe on the rear bogie of Aldgate-bound trains would sometimes stop very close to the the ramp* at the end of a section of fourth rail. This happened because A stock trains were so long that they bridged the points for C stock trains that reversed direction of travel in the eastbound platform.

*I think thats the correct term, but am not 100% sure

[d7666]

Aug 26, 2022 12:46:42 GMT Tom said:

Any examples? I would have thought the current being drawn would have blown fuses before the shoe could weld itself.

I think this is mostly an urban rumour. Agree I think fuses blow or supply trip before anything as big as a shoe could weld itself to a rail. Arc welding with a small rod needs Amps in the order of low 100s _ but for something like the size of collector a shoe you'd need 1000s lasting for a time way in excess of circuit trip duration.

Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.

[t697]

Yes. it doesn't seem at all likely. If the arc manages to melt enough metal to bridge between shoe and rail and this actually welds to both, the arc will extinguish because current flow will be by the weld metal. And when the train then motors, this relatively weedy bit of weld will just break off.

[class411]

If a shoe did weld itself to the rail, either a real weld, or an ice weld, would it be likely to pull away from the rail, or would it destroy the shoe's mounting, if any motor was powered and the train tried to move?

[t697]

Too many variables to be sure I think.
Positive or Negative shoe alters current flow direction
Conductor rail material - traditional steel or stainless steel topped low loss rail.
Collector show material - various grades of cast iron or steel are in use on different stock types.
Frangibility load of the specific shoegear design.

Any welding experts think this alleged scenario is at all plausible?

[d7666]

I suppose a scenario might be if extended arcing occurred depositing molten metal blobs in unwanted places, when cold you might need a welder type person or maybe ERU to go cut them off - and hence the confused or exaggerated stories ?

[johnlinford]

I suppose with a steel rail and steel shoe it's not impossible, but it does seem unlikely. Molten metal blobs/deformation from the heat of prolonged arcing seems more likely than a true weld. Current flow directional affect would depend on the material of the cathode and anode - with material mismatches this could go either way!

[brigham]

I had some footage of extreme arcing in the snow, years back.
I think it was on the end of a commercial VHS video release. Can't find it now.

[Dstock7080]

Aug 30, 2022 7:19:50 GMT brigham said:

I had some footage of extreme arcing in the snow, years back.
I think it was on the end of a commercial VHS video release. Can't find it now.

"Underground Trains Remembered" and "R Stock Remembered" both on DVD available.

[xtmw]

Although it isn't the same, I found this on youtube.

[stapler]

Funny how the snow thins out on the supposedly colder country sections beyond Debden, and wonder what the P-way workers were out for at 40.25?

[spsmiler]

Aug 30, 2022 8:51:49 GMT xtmw said:

Although it isn't the same, I found this on youtube.

interesting... I only watched some of it - even today Snaresbrook retains many of the 1930s arched concrete lights which on the eastbound platform also illuminate the former bay / goods yard platform (now a car park) and the concrete panels (station name, adverts) on that side are all blank!

Leytonstone did not show two westbound trains arriving simultaneously but what it did feature was this train being held where the two westbound tracks merge so the the train from Wanstead could pass! Also, the Goblin (just behind the signals) was not electrified.

The train is held just outside Stratford - you can actually see the train in front leaving the station. Platform 3a is still under construction.

The train passes white signals when departing from both Leyton and Stratford stations (white signals were a thread topic here a while ago).


---------------------------

On the topic of snow and arcing (this thread!) below is a still image from video. filmed near to Sainsburys Newbury Park - where I am supposed to be going (by foot, with shopping trolley) 'right now' instead of being on the computer!!





Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote amended.

[Dstock7080]

This was my pics of 2 February 2009, published in UndergrounD News:

[xtmw]

Also note where the train stops at 2:08. Lots of fiddling around in the cab. Isn't this the driver changing the train from ATO into CM?

[xtmw]

Aug 31, 2022 14:38:45 GMT spsmiler said:

Leytonstone did not show two westbound trains arriving simultaneously but what it did feature was this train being held where the two westbound tracks merge so the the train from Wanstead could pass! Also, the Goblin (just behind the signals) was not electrified.

I was at Leytonstone today, it is my enemy! The trains from Newbury Park always get favour in leaving first, causing the trains from Epping to always slow down in the tunnels! 


Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.

[towerman]

Cold weather precautions at Hainault,freezing my nuts off at 3am on 55rd filling up deicing trains.

[spsmiler]

Aug 31, 2022 23:06:59 GMT xtmw said:

I was at Leytonstone today, it is my enemy! The trains from Newbury Park always get favour in leaving first, causing the trains from Epping to always slow down in the tunnels!

There are no tunnels between Snaresbrook and Leytonstone - but there is a road bridge over the railway that seems to be for a fairly wide road.

Regarding which trains get priority, as someone who arrives from the Wanstead direction I too wish to make a complaining comment - but for the opposite reason ... trains from Snaresbrook seem to get priority and far too often it happens that whilst my train might leave the station first it then stops just outside the station so that the train from Snaresbrook can pass it by!

[xtmw]

Sept 7, 2022 13:35:10 GMT spsmiler said:

Aug 31, 2022 23:06:59 GMT xtmw said:

I was at Leytonstone today, it is my enemy! The trains from Newbury Park always get favour in leaving first, causing the trains from Epping to always slow down in the tunnels!

There are no tunnels between Snaresbrook and Leytonstone - but there is a road bridge over the railway that seems to be for a fairly wide road.

Regarding which trains get priority, as someone who arrives from the Wanstead direction I too wish to make a complaining comment - but for the opposite reason ... trains from Snaresbrook seem to get priority and far too often it happens that whilst my train might leave the station first it then stops just outside the station so that the train from Snaresbrook can pass it by!

I'm talking about westbound! It seems our luck isn't good when it comes to Leytonstone.. However back to the topic, trains in the snow before the mods come for us!

[class411]

Sept 7, 2022 22:29:28 GMT xtmw said:

However back to the topic, trains in the snow before the mods come for us!

A pair of black helicopters are being readied for delivery to DD's enforcement division as we speak.