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Post by d7666 on Mar 7, 2023 18:04:05 GMT
The biggest problem with the S7 trains is them having two different paper maps inside - District line & Hamm City + Circle lines Other cities get around this by illuminating the stations showing the exact route the train will follow. 2 maps is a problem ?  What other city has a single illuminated map containing anything as big as the entire SSR and all it's stations ? Cite please. And then illuminates it inside every metro car AND has 4 coloured lamps *** to illuminate that map with the right line's train because that will be the next 'problem' someone will raise. So provide a flat screen and illuminate pixels ? Are you paying for this ? X screens per car, xx cars per train, xxx trains, and so on. *** i.e. for SSR green and yellow and pink and maroon ? |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 7, 2023 18:22:52 GMT
The problem with electronic maps is they're only useful as long as they work. If I had a pound for every time I've had an S stock with destination display problems......
At least paper map's don't fail to display themselves.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 7, 2023 18:47:19 GMT
When I was at Tower Hill on the Sunday a lot of non Londoners were confused by a train that was going to go eastwards was standing in a platform clearly signed as westbound with line diagrams to match. Confusion from an eastbound train leaving from the westbound platform reminded me of the aftermath of the 1979 Leyton eastbound collision. It was all over the front of the evening papers. People were coming off the District line trains at Mile End asking "how do I get to Stratford?" and we were redirecting them to the westbound Central Line platform where a special shuttle train was provided between those two stations for just that purpose. Without exception, they would ask if there was a bus they could take instead! After years of travelling westbound from that platform, and due to a train collision, we were asking them to 'trust us' and plunge eastbound into the westbound tunnel! |
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 7, 2023 22:42:58 GMT
2 maps is a problem ? What other city has a single illuminated map containing anything as big as the entire SSR and all it's stations ? Cite please. And then illuminates it inside every metro car AND has 4 coloured lamps *** to illuminate that map with the right line's train because that will be the next 'problem' someone will raise. So provide a flat screen and illuminate pixels ? Are you paying for this ? X screens per car, xx cars per train, xxx trains, and so on. *** i.e. for SSR green and yellow and pink and maroon ? I agree that having 2 maps is not a problem, due to the constant "This is a ____ line train to _____" both in announcements and on the display (DMI? LED?), most tourists should be able to figure out which map to use. However, it is very likely that digital displays are the future of carriage maps. There are many cities with large metro systems and LCD displays, such as Tokyo, Wuhan, and Shenzhen. Beijing has OLED displays in its windows. Plus, you wouldn't need to display the entire SSR network - only the line the train is currently running as. As for "4 coloured lamps", wouldn't you just use a typical RGB display? Also, having a few LCD displays per carriage is not unusual. The new Overground and Elizabeth Line trains have them. The new Piccadilly (NTfL) trains will have them. These already display train status and next station, and future displays can include more information in the future. I'm not suggesting this is something the London Underground should have immediately (especially the transparent displays - a cool feature to have, but very expensive), but rather as a feature for trains in the future. I pondered whether I was in a world class city or a 3rd world city. A glitch in the LED display due to a temporary closure does not amount to a "3rd world city". A "3rd world city" has only a few rail lines with old diesel trains. A "3rd world city" gets excited when a new bus route is created. A "3rd world city" does not have a metro system (and if it does, it's probably small and in poor condition, or currently being built). A "3rd world city" does not have Crossrail projects, high speed rail, or a strong network of rail, subway, trams, buses, and bike infrastructure. Be grateful.Source: I come from a "3rd world city" with these characteristics. I am not implying that all "3rd world cities" have these characteristics. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 8, 2023 1:20:37 GMT
The problem with electronic maps is they're only useful as long as they work. If I had a pound for every time I've had an S stock with destination display problems...... At least paper map's don't fail to display themselves. I was a on a train in the West Midlands the other day which has a brand new, full-screen display of the route ahead, including what the next station is. This is really good when it works - however, at one point it got stuck and didn't update for about four stations in a row. |
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Post by d7666 on Mar 8, 2023 2:04:33 GMT
My use of the term lamps was sarcasm to light the "problem" to help the "confused" .
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 11, 2023 13:45:04 GMT
2 maps is a problem ? What other city has a single illuminated map containing anything as big as the entire SSR and all it's stations ? Cite please. And then illuminates it inside every metro car AND has 4 coloured lamps *** to illuminate that map with the right line's train because that will be the next 'problem' someone will raise. So provide a flat screen and illuminate pixels ? Are you paying for this ? X screens per car, xx cars per train, xxx trains, and so on. *** i.e. for SSR green and yellow and pink and maroon ? A few photos, 1) The situation here in London, two paper maps showing different lines on S7 trains. Tourists and other passengers who rarely use these trains do not always notice that these maps are different and in the absence of lights at stations showing the full route of that specific journey they find this situation to be somewhat confusing.  2) Two maps from Paris - RER and Metro  3) Hong Kong - and older train (the green 'direction of travel' arrows and next stations flash) and a newer train with an LCD display   Laggard London is still in the steam train era - nostalgia style paper maps are not the issue, the problem is when passengers are confused because you have not adopted the clearest and simplest to understand methods of making necessary information available to passengers - even those from nations that use different written word characters sets and for whom our alphabet is 'a challenge' I am also critical of the latest Overground and Elizabeth line trains for not including full route maps in their LCD display sequences. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 13, 2023 17:47:17 GMT
]I was a on a train in the West Midlands the other day which has a brand new, full-screen display of the route ahead, including what the next station is. This is really good when it works - however, at one point it got stuck and didn't update for about four stations in a row. Was this one of the new ones? (Bombardier Adventra trains but with corridor connections) The new Stadler Merseyrail trains have a letter M that moves along the map to show your progress in that journey. I've not yet been able to travel to see these for myself but am hoping to do this eventually. Perhaps when there are more running and the chances of catching them are better. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 13, 2023 18:22:24 GMT
I did see one on a 197, but the one on that worked flawlessly for the two stops I was on it. The one that failed was on a recently refurbished train (possibly a 172) on a Coventry to Birmingham New Street stopping service.
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Post by Hutch on Mar 13, 2023 20:46:06 GMT
by way of contrast the latest Class 777 trains in Merseyside have electronic (LCD?) maps that show the full route, a real-time indication showing where the train is along that route plus the expected time of arrival at each station! Check out Geoff Marshall's recent Youtube video. He makes a comment in that regard. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 13, 2023 21:47:22 GMT
Other YouTubers are available:
Anyway, I think we are drifting away from Engineering work.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 31, 2023 0:21:41 GMT
777s.
This week I have been ooop norf including Merseyside mainly after 507s and 508s - but me being me covered the 777 workings on the Kirkby route and travelled on 4 different 777s.***
I knew I was going there which is why I did not respond earlier. Now that I have seen what 777s have in real life, I can.
None of the e-maps on any of those 4 units I saw displayed "full route map" or "expected times of arrival at each station". No idea what they were supposed to be showing and or if there was a fault somewhere, but they were not, for me, useful, me not being that familiar with every suburban shack.
And, if they are supposed to work like described, trying to cram in Upminster to Richmond on one screen of their size would lead to illegable for anyone without using opera glasses.
The longest Merseyrail service is Southport to Hunts Cross = 23 stations that is about half the 41/42 of Upminster to Richmond or Ealing Broadway, and Merseyrail excluding main line has only 2 line interchanges within Wirral and Northern lines, or 3 if you count City line; those District services have 18/19 interchanges excluding main line. I doubt any e-display would have the clarity and resolution of a printed car map if that e-display were crammed into the same space.
None of the photo images upthread too have anything like the number of District line stations. The RER A map has about 3/4 of the number but less branches. And I have seen those RER maps myself, so my post was not in ignorance of these things.
If 'use a bigger display' is anyone's response, then that introduces much further cost and complexity.
I just don't think blindly attempting to do what is seen in other cities directly applies simply because the SSL route complexity is, well, more complex.
Further, it is alleged having two car maps in S-stock is confusing. Even if e-displays were introduced, there would still have to be those same two car maps in each car, so now your non anorak customer has three diagrams to chose from; if they can't figure 1 from 2 they sure won't get 1 from 3. The carmaps will have to be there still, and the immediate knee jerk response to removing them is "what about when the e-displays fail" or service disruption that does not get indicated.
I am NOT arguing against the use of e-displays; what I am saying is I do not think the end result will be as clear as the current paper car maps because those other examples are somewhat simpler topologies than routes worked by S-stock.
***
off topic for for those who like to know these things, travelled on 40 different 507 and 508 units along with the 4 777s all in one day, and the entire DC network twice over except Hunts Cross and Kirkby did once each.
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