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Post by d7666 on Nov 15, 2023 21:18:10 GMT
Stupid question time.
Does LU use track circuit operating clips for emergency train protection and do LU trains carry them ? If not used, why not ?
Bear in mind I am not an operator - and certainly not a train operator - and have little formal idea about emergency stuff like this. The question came up at work in idle chatter while on a definitely non-signalling course with some exTOC personnel. With the stuff relevant to what I do do, I don't recall track circuit operating clips anywhere. TBH never even thought about it on LU.
Per usual, I'll head off in advance smart alec responses about some LU lines/area no longer use track circuits for train protection - the question obviously refers to lines that do.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Nov 15, 2023 22:12:37 GMT
Only things trains used to carry in emergency cabinet was detonators,flags,ice scraper & shoe paddles.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 16, 2023 5:39:36 GMT
S Stock and 1972 Stock do indeed carry Track Circuit Operating Clips as they run over or alongside National Rail infrastructure.
They must NOT be used on 4-rail current system track.
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Post by d7666 on Nov 16, 2023 8:53:00 GMT
S Stock and 1972 Stock do indeed carry Track Circuit Operating Clips as they run over or alongside National Rail infrastructure. They must NOT be used on 4-rail current system track. thank you! |
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Post by modeng2000 on Nov 16, 2023 8:58:00 GMT
Forgive me, what are track circuit operating clips?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 16, 2023 9:29:24 GMT
Sheathed cable probably 10mm thick, with clips that hook over the top of running rails, there is an inbuilt springiness and scraper to clean the contact surface
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Post by Hutch on Nov 16, 2023 11:11:02 GMT
S Stock and 1972 Stock do indeed carry Track Circuit Operating Clips as they run over or alongside National Rail infrastructure. They must NOT be used on 4-rail current system track. Please could you explain why. |
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Post by Chris M on Nov 16, 2023 12:00:16 GMT
Sheathed cable probably 10mm thick, with clips that hook over the top of running rails, there is an inbuilt springiness and scraper to clean the contact surface To expand on this slightly, the purpose of the clips and cable is to make an electrical connection between the running rails operating the track circuit. This indicates to the signaller and signalling system that the track section is not clear so trains are not routed onto it, providing an extra level of safety for anybody on that or an adjacent track. |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 16, 2023 13:02:49 GMT
for example, in addition to protecting itself, a train may be derailed, or part derailed, and still operating the track circuits on its own track, but could be overhanging a parallel track without making contact with the rails, so that track too needs blocking; put a track circuit clip on it will make the circuit go down, hence red signal before it; that is just one example
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Post by principlesdesigner on Nov 16, 2023 13:49:16 GMT
S Stock and 1972 Stock do indeed carry Track Circuit Operating Clips as they run over or alongside National Rail infrastructure. They must NOT be used on 4-rail current system track. Please could you explain why. Because they would have to pass over or under the negative conductor rail, and be very close to the positive conductor rail |
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Post by 35b on Nov 16, 2023 16:54:05 GMT
S Stock and 1972 Stock do indeed carry Track Circuit Operating Clips as they run over or alongside National Rail infrastructure. They must NOT be used on 4-rail current system track. Is there anywhere that they operate that doesn’t have 4 rail electrification? I’m struggling to see where they might be used given that restriction. |
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Post by t697 on Nov 16, 2023 18:07:48 GMT
On the NR sections concerned the centre negative conductor rail is electrically bonded to the traction return running rail so that both LUL 4 rail trains and other trains operating on the 3 rail principle can both operate.
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Post by d7666 on Nov 16, 2023 21:18:08 GMT
again. a use is not necessarily to apply track circuit clips to the tracks where, say, derailed LU train, or some other incident requiring such protection, but to apply them to parallel NR tracks, that may not be LU 3rd/4th rail.
actually my question /was/ about LU trains on LU tracks, but since upthread posts (q.v.) indicated where LU trains carry them, it falls into place (well, to me anyway).
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Post by modeng2000 on Nov 17, 2023 12:41:26 GMT
Thank you all for explaining what they are and their usage.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 17, 2023 17:59:55 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail.
We also carry detonators which are supposed to be placed 2km from the derailed train, by the time we got there any train approaching would have turned up!
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Post by d7666 on Nov 17, 2023 21:32:48 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail. We also carry detonators which are supposed to be placed 2km from the derailed train, by the time we got there any train approaching would have turned up! ta. |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 17, 2023 21:36:18 GMT
Thank you all for explaining what they are and their usage. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that video as I am not myself trained to use the things, but you'll see them and how they are applied. |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Nov 17, 2023 22:20:15 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail. We also carry detonators which are supposed to be placed 2km from the derailed train, by the time we got there any train approaching would have turned up! Thought detonators were removed years ago as a H&S issue. |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 17, 2023 22:41:52 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail. I felt sure that Central line trains would need these too - for the very reasons you suggest. But, re: Stratford, the eastbound Central line platform 6 runs alongside westbound Network Rail platform 5 - there is no platform between them, just some sort of fence. I suppose that in theory derailments from things like broken rails (and other reasons I'd rather not try to think about) are possible just about anywhere, however unlikely it may seem. However there are no points (switches / turnouts) on this section of track, which rules out one of the more likely reasons. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 17, 2023 23:48:08 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail. We also carry detonators which are supposed to be placed 2km from the derailed train, by the time we got there any train approaching would have turned up! Thought detonators were removed years ago as a H&S issue. I will check the contents list of the emergency equipment locker tomorrow but we still asked about placement of detonators during CDP so I guess we still have them |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 18, 2023 1:46:19 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail. I felt sure that Central line trains would need these too - for the very reasons you suggest. But, re: Stratford, the eastbound Central line platform 6 runs alongside westbound Network Rail platform 5 - there is no platform between them, just some sort of fence. I suppose that in theory derailments from things like broken rails (and other reasons I'd rather not try to think about) are possible just about anywhere, however unlikely it may seem. However there are no points (switches / turnouts) on this section of track, which rules out one of the more likely reasons. Whatever causes or however unlikely a derailment is does not negate the need to provide emergency equipment for when they do. |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 18, 2023 1:57:30 GMT
We have them on the Central line. Parallel running from North Acton to West Ruislip, West Acton to Ealing Broadway and technically at Stratford although we'd have to clear the platform to get a derailed 1992 stock onto Network Rail. We also carry detonators which are supposed to be placed 2km from the derailed train, by the time we got there any train approaching would have turned up! Thought detonators were removed years ago as a H&S issue. Wasn't the HS&s hissy fit more about the type of detonator and or secure storage and disposal rather than use of them per se ? |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 18, 2023 9:45:00 GMT
Thought detonators were removed years ago as a H&S issue. Wasn't the HS&s hissy fit more about the type of detonator and or secure storage and disposal rather than use of them per se ? Speaking as an ex-H&S Rep if there was an issue raised and it led to changes then it can hardly be described as a "hissy fit" I've just read Christian Wolmar's history of British Rail and one of the things highlighted was how greater attention to H&S cut the number of rail workers deaths |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 18, 2023 10:22:26 GMT
Thought detonators were removed years ago as a H&S issue. I will check the contents list of the emergency equipment locker tomorrow but we still asked about placement of detonators during CDP so I guess we still have them Detonators are still carried on S Stock |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 18, 2023 12:50:18 GMT
Wasn't the HS&s hissy fit more about the type of detonator and or secure storage and disposal rather than use of them per se ? Speaking as an ex-H&S Rep if there was an issue raised and it led to changes then it can hardly be described as a "hissy fit" Yeh sorry that didn't come over in the way intended. IIRC the h&se issue came about where detonators were being stolen from trains/storage railway sites and used for other purposes leading to injuries; it was not about their use on the railway, nor about their use on the railway, nor on potential injuries to rail personnel. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 20, 2023 16:21:22 GMT
I can confirm that along with track circuit operating clips we have six detonators in a 1992 stock emergency track equipment locker. The very idea that we could walk 2km from a derailed train that was blocking Network Rail track and place three of them at 20m intervals then walk another 4km to place the other three on the other side of the incident is rather optimistic but this knowledge is what you have to be able to demonstrate to a training manager every 18 months to retain your licence as a Central line driver
Only four years, two months until I retire...
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Post by tut on Nov 20, 2023 19:10:41 GMT
Well as you are no doubt well aware you would only need to place emergency protection if you had been unable to contact the Network Rail signaller (which I suppose in your case would be quite likely insofar as contacting them directly, but perhaps Wood Lane would be able to do that for you) or the signaller was unable to provide protection, which would be quite unlikely. In any case, if you were required to place emergency protection and a train did approach you would of course at once place three detonators on the track and display a hand danger signal to stop the approaching train. Furthermore if you came across any telephone linked to the signal box you would place three detonators on the line at the telephone and then contact the signaller. You would only need to continue the full distance if the signaller was unable to provide protection.
In any case it's funny this should come up now as NR has been reviewing its use of detonators and even in the forthcoming December Rule Book updates it has gone to town on them, such that assistance protection will not be provided in good visibility, a decision I wholeheartedly disagree with. But in no sense whatsoever were detonators removed years ago, nor are they being removed in December.
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Nov 21, 2023 6:43:25 GMT
S Stock and 1972 Stock do indeed carry Track Circuit Operating Clips as they run over or alongside National Rail infrastructure. They must NOT be used on 4-rail current system track. Please could you explain why. Don't think they would stretch far enough on a fourth rail system, as they are only long enough to stretch between the running rails to prevent accidental clipping to the third rail. The fourth rail would be in the way |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 21, 2023 10:51:35 GMT
Please could you explain why. Don't think they would stretch far enough on a fourth rail system, as they are only long enough to stretch between the running rails to prevent accidental clipping to the third rail. The fourth rail would be in the way not sure that is a fully valid argument, since can still bridge 3rd to 4th rails, as well as 3rd to closest running and 4th to closest running rails as those lengths are all shorter than running rail to running rail, the latter being setting the required clip cable length |
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Post by t697 on Nov 21, 2023 17:33:11 GMT
I seem to recall the insulation on the cable on a set of track circuit clips isn't rated for traction voltages and of course it would lay on the negative rail. Also all the points about the frequent LUL service, possibility of applying to the wrong rail in confusion and so on are relevant too.
And these days, the user would need to be trained on which part of their line doesn't use track circuits at all.
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