TSRs on the network & the current state of the TRV

[xtmw]

This weekend, the Central Line might be running a special service due to the Track Recording Train becoming defective. Numerous speed restrictions will also be introduced from this afternoon (?)

Just when you thought things couldn't get worse! 

[aslefshrugged]

Wood Lane Control Room say there are 19 separate TSRs (Temporary Speed Restrictions)

I've only been from Leytonstone to Marble Arch, Marble Arch to Newbury Park, Newbury Park to Leytonstone and the only TSR was Mile End to Stratford, both directions, 35kph

Got Leytonstone to Loughton, Loughton to West Ruislip, West Ruislip to Leytonstone next, I'll see what I can find

Was told by the Train Manager they've decided to run the Boxing Day timetable tomorrow but obviously we're all working on the normal Saturday roster so who knows how they're going to organise things

[xtmw]

It's bad

Roding Valley - Chigwell 35kph
Barkingside - Newbury Park 35kph
Epping - Theydon Bois 35kph
Theydon Bois - Debden 35kph
Debden - Loughton 35kph
Loughton - Buckhurst Hill 35kph
Buckhurst Hill - Woodford 35kph
Woodford - South Woodford 35kph
Leytonstone - Leyton 35kph
Leyton - Stratford 35kph
Stratford - Mile End 35kph
Bethnal Green - Mile End 35kph
Queensway - Lancaster Gate 35kph
Shepherd's Bush - White City 25kph
East Acton - White City 35kph
North Acton - East Acton 35kph

[zbang]

I'm missing the cause/effect connection from the track recording train being defective and the TSRs. Are they because the TRT couldn't re-certify those segments, new conditions that can't now be tested, or something else?

Or is there no connection at all?

[xtmw]

There's a 72 stock parked in Ruislip Depot, how it's going to be put to use I don't know because I was under the impression the 72 stock wasn't compatible with the signalling on the Central line

[zbang]

I'm still missing something.
Do those TSR's pre-date the failure of the TRT? It sounds like they were introduced as consequence of that failure. If the TRT was able to run, I assume the TSRs be removed as the track could be proved to be in order.

Or, are there certain sections that will have a TSR applied if not tested within a certain interval? I don't know the standard practice for TRT use on the Central (or other lines). I could see that for tighter curves or more problematic areas.

[xtmw]

The TSRs were quite random - it was basically 35kph from Epping - South Woodford on the westbound (except when ATO would accelerate just before entering a station) TSRs were placed in consequence of the data not being collected from the track.

It sounds like they've got the sufficient data now as the TSRs might be removed within the next 72 hours. I wouldn't hold your breath though.

[tut]

Feb 24, 2024 18:45:48 GMT zbang said:

I'm still missing something.
Do those TSR's pre-date the failure of the TRT? It sounds like they were introduced as consequence of that failure. If the TRT was able to run, I assume the TSRs be removed as the track could be proved to be in order.

There are a lot of forces placed on the track in normal use, it's incredible how much force is applied through a tiny contact patch but it dissipates very quickly and very effectively. I believe the contact patch is usually about the size of a coin. A Central Line carriage, according to Wikipedia, weighs up to (I assume the higher number is for driving motor cars?) 22½ tonnes and that weight is concentrated onto the rail at just eight of those coin-sized contact patches. Despite how well designed the track is all kinds of faults can develop with it that I don't really understand. At worst the gauge could spread and derail the train, you could have a twist fault which could cause derailments, you could have broken rails which could cause derailments, there's all sorts of things that can happen if the condition of the track is allowed to deteriorate which I won't pretend to be able to explain to you and I don't know how much of it applies to LU, some faults like cyclic top are particularly likely to affect freight. You might find this (National-Rail-focused) channel interesting though www.youtube.com/@thepwayengineer/videos There's also quite a nice example of what can happen (especially to freight) in this video here: 

So for this reason the track must be regularly inspected to ensure it is up to standard.

If it is not inspected within the required intervals, the correct response is not 'well it's probably fine, it was fine before', the correct response is 'we have no way of knowing whether it's fine or not, we haven't been able to check, so we will have to run at these reduced speeds that have been calculated to ensure that operations can carry on safely'.

[gefw]

Rather seemed like last a minute realisation that they were up against the latest date for running the TRT (as defined in the maintenance and assurance regime)

Perhaps also indicative that quite a few areas of track were of concern ( based on the last TRT results) 
Would seem to emphasise the importance of:

1 A replacement for the very old existing TRT (perhaps also supplemented by basic track condition monitoring kit on a standard service train).
2 A good tamping regime to proactively assure track condition - I the 3 tampers TFL have should be fully utilised.

[Chris L]

I travelled from Stratford to Epping soon after 0900 this morning.

Once on the platform I saw the first two trains were Hainault vis Newbury Park. A Loughton Train was third followed by another Hainault via Newbury Park. The Loughton train had suffered a graffiti attack.

Finally got an Epping train. When we got to Buckhurst Hill the driver announced the train would terminate at Loughton but the train on the centre platform there was a shuttle service to Epping. When we arrived at Loughton the shuttle service was the previous Loughton terminator.

I noticed there was a track maintenance vehicle in the sidings at Woodford on my return journey.

[DWS]

Re a replacement for the TRT, lots was spent on a asset inspection train ,formed of cars from the Victoria Line and it was found to be underpowered so more cars added, then the project was scrapped not that long ago.

[jimbo]

Plans for replacement of the TRT were noted here. Any update?

[noddymac]

Temporary speed restrictions I encountered today:

On approach to Newbury Park on the west
Leaving Newbury Park on the west just into the tunnel
Leaving Leytonstone on the west
Entering the tunnel at Leyton on the west all the way to Mile End.

[Chris L]

I was at Chingford this afternoon and saw Ensign are running buses between there and Epping.

Is this service being publicised?

[elsombernie]

This post districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/525567 outlines the shuttle buses.
I've seen photos of notices at stations regarding these services, but I don't know which station they were from.

[xtmw]

The TRV was seen on the Central, but it failed to record the data required! Therefore the TSRs will remain in place until said data has been collected.

Not been a good year for the Central so far...

[starlight73]

I did see the TRT at Acton Town on Wednesday (I think it was, at least. Sorry if this photo is off topic). My attempt at filming it was very short, but at least it’s mobile…

[noddymac]

I’ve been told by a few of my managers the restrictions could be in place for a few weeks.

As mentioned on here already, it hasn’t been a good year for us on the Central line so far and this dates back to November last year.

[gefw]

Mar 3, 2024 22:05:06 GMT noddymac said:

I’ve been told by a few of my managers the restrictions could be in place for a few weeks.

As mentioned on here already, it hasn’t been a good year for us on the Central line so far and this dates back to November last year.

Tamper seen leaving Ruislip (on the back of a lorry) - so hopefully heading East

[towerman]

Is the new WTT making an improvement?

[scheduler]

The problem with the TRV is not it running, but it actually recording data. The 72 stock at Ruislip is planned to be run around on the Central, with or without assistance from other bits of engineering trains, battery locos, etc. in order to collect some track data and get the TSRs lifted. West end of line upto White City is for obvious reasons a lot easier to do than the rest of the line.

[gefw]

Mar 7, 2024 2:46:02 GMT scheduler said:

The problem with the TRV is not it running, but it actually recording data. The 72 stock at Ruislip is planned to be run around on the Central, with or without assistance from other bits of engineering trains, battery locos, etc. in order to collect some track data and get the TSRs lifted. West end of line upto White City is for obvious reasons a lot easier to do than the rest of the line.

I guess the recording system used on the TRT is computer based and old/obsolete - lets hope they manage to "get it going".

I believe quite a number of lines are similarly reliant on this system for Track condition monitoring and Assurance.

[spsmiler]

I wonder if Network Rail still sometimes borrows this train.

[Dstock7080]

Mar 7, 2024 20:40:31 GMT spsmiler said:

I wonder if Network Rail still sometimes borrows this train.

Network Rail wouldn’t borrow the TRT, as the motor cars are 4th rail fitted, but possibly the TRC666 as it has in the past.

[xtmw]

Speed restrictions east of Leytonstone to be lifted within the next 2 weeks. The tamping machine has been released to the eastern end of the line where it has been fitted with the appropriate track monitoring equipment.

Obviously the tamping machine can't fit inside the tunnel so therefore the TSRs west of Leytonstone will remain in place until a solution is found.

There's been talk of the 1972 stock (which was seen on the Piccadilly Line substituting for the usual TRV train) doing some work on the Central but don't know how it'll do that because as far as I'm aware the 1972 stock isn't compatible with the Central Line signalling. Unless it's coupled with another train...

[gefw]

Mar 14, 2024 11:59:58 GMT xtmw said:

Speed restrictions east of Leytonstone to be lifted within the next 2 weeks. The tamping machine has been released to the eastern end of the line where it has been fitted with the appropriate track monitoring equipment.

Obviously the tamping machine can't fit inside the tunnel so therefore the TSRs west of Leytonstone will remain in place until a solution is found.

There's been talk of the 1972 stock (which was seen on the Piccadilly Line substituting for the usual TRV train) doing some work on the Central but don't know how it'll do that because as far as I'm aware the 1972 stock isn't compatible with the Central Line signalling. Unless it's coupled with another train...

The 72 tube stock could be used under special protection ( like the tamper or grinder) but this takes time to publicise/arrange for Eng Hrs. - Note the central line does have adequate colour like signals but no trainstops to provide the automatic protection (if the train op does not respond correctly to the signals) - Why not put an additional "very responsible" person in the cab !!!

[towerman]

When 67TS went on other lines they were double manned as they didn’t have a deadman’s valve.

[Tom]

Mar 14, 2024 11:59:58 GMT xtmw said:

Obviously the tamping machine can't fit inside the tunnel so therefore the TSRs west of Leytonstone will remain in place until a solution is found.

More importantly, a tamping machine is no use when the sleepers are set in concrete, which is the case for a lot of the track west of Leytonstone.

Mar 14, 2024 22:18:01 GMT towerman said:

When 67TS went on other lines they were double manned as they didn’t have a deadman’s valve.

Did they not? I remember they had the vigilance button which I always assumed connected to a deadman valve when in Coded or Slow Manual modes.

[towerman]

Vigilance button was cut out when in tripcock mode,was a tripcock/vigilance switch in offside equipment cabinet.Train would’ve been restricted to 10mph with vigilance cut in.

[spsmiler]

oh good! Thanks for the info

its crazy how trains accelerate just as they enter a station - when they should be slowing down!