Replacement bus service

[Deleted]

Does anyone know whether or not the replacement bus services will cover the extended ELL or just the current segment?

[Deleted]

The replacement buses will run as follows:

Route ELC

New Cross Gate - New Cross - Surrey Quays - Canada Water

Every 8- 10 mins Daily
Every 5 mins during peaks.

Route ELP

Canada Water - Rotherhithe

Every 15 mins Daily

Route ELW

Whitechapel - Shadwell - Wapping

Every 10 mins

Route ELS

Will run as now, Whitechapel - Shoreditch

There are width restrictions within the Rotherhithe Tunnel preventing the use of adequate sized buses. Alternative routing for a replacement bus service would significantly increase journey times beyond those of existing Tube and DLR services.

[Colin]

Whilst the Rotherhithe tunnel is indeed small, it's not impossible to run buses through it - Stagecoach East London ran Optare Starider's through it and I'm sure the last time the East London line was shut Capital Citybus (as it was then) ran something similar.

Also last time round, the double deck replacement buses went over Tower Bridge. I suppose the thinking this time round is that the Jubilee line should be used by our inconvenienced customers (it wasn't in existence last time) - I think that's a bit of a mickey take personally!

[suncloud]

I'm sure Solos would happily go through the tunnel (they have a good range of lengths and widths available)... but I know they're not a popular type in London so would probably have to be brought in specially. It might be a case that the capacity of these buses makes such a service uneconomical/impractical.

[Deleted]

www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/395.htm

basically, they can only use minibuses in the tunnel.

[Oracle]

Jumping and bumping, in fact there was another service, 1963-66 at most, using Thames Trader (Ford) Double-Deckers, TT1-5, on the Dartford cycle-carrying service. For photo see later posting.

[Deleted]

rob said:

www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/395.htm

basically, they can only use minibuses in the tunnel.

Well by todays standard it is a minibus of sorts ! I couldn't resist the opportunity to post this picture I took on 4/4/03 a copy of which hung in the offices of Blue Triangle for some time !


In fact Blue Triangle bid for the 395 with RT's and TfL inspected them being all that was in the running, until First bid with the Koch's. Later the narrow Solo's used by First would fit in the tunnel, but required a complete navigation of the Rotherhithe roundabout when running northbound as the angle was too sharp for the direct, first exit, to get through the width restriction. It was decided thus to bar them from going through there.

The 395 was withdrawn recently and no service buses now use the tunnel.

[Deleted]

if they did have RTs they would have done brilliantly! I seem to remember First having to use other buses because of engineering to the Koch's and having to run via Tower Bridge.

[Oracle]

The tunnel RTs I believe had tyres with specially-reinforced sidewalls as they had to rub against the kerb all the way through. I am not sure if they were banned from passing each other or not. Looking at the photo makes me wonder if the indicators at least might clash!

[abe]

TfL have decided not to operate buses through the Rotherhithe Tunnel because the minibuses used last time aren't accessible to the mobility-impaired. See slides 4 and 5 in this file: www.gold.ac.uk/east-london.pdf

[suncloud]

It seems ridiculous that in this situation that DDA rules has effectively ruled out a replacement bus service. Yes I'm behind making TfL services more accesible... but it strikes me as the majority will be inconvenienced because a minority cannot be catered for with the one solution. Surely taxi's or one or two accessible minibuses on standby can cover the need as it arises. As long as it's clear that this is the system.

And isn't it common for non-accessible vehicles to be used on Rail Replacement duties.

Unless the complication is cost?

[Chris M]

I thought that earlier - I think it would be far more sensible to run a not-fully accessible replacement bus service and arrange taxis for those who are unable to access the buses. Make it clear that this is the system, and why it is being done this way (i.e. accessible buses are too big to fit in the tunnel) and nobody should complain. According to the current tube map, the only two stations on the East London Line with step-free access at present are New Cross and Canada Water. Given this I don't imagine that there will be a huge number of mobility-impaired passengers on the Wapping-Rotherhithe section, and the service would not be removing downgrading accessibility.

[Deleted]

The 395's were timed not to pass in the tunnel, but that didn't always work out !

I only drove the route on one ocassion, in a Metrorider, and certainly passed another one in the tunnel. It was tight but do-able.

The Starriders used by Stagecoach on the ELT service in the past aquired many a scrape from a misjudged pass through the width restrictions !

Seems to me they should simply alter the width restriction a bit ! The tunnel is tight but not that tight if vehicles pass slowly ! As I say, my recollection was that the "slimline optare Solo" DID fit the width restriction provided it got a straight line of approach. After all we got the RT down there no problem. I don't think there was a width restriction in the days of RTs with reinforced tyres !

The buses Rob recollects running via Tower Bridge were Marshall Darts which were too wide for the width restriction.

The route would have been far more popular, and may have survived, had it run on from Limehouse the short way to Mile End Station, but I think TfL didn't want it popular because of the capacity problems !

[happybunny]

The East London line trains / stations are not accessible are they? So why do the buses need to be

[Deleted]

What a stupid idea. By the same logic the re-opened ELR should be fully accessable then!

[suncloud]

happybunny said:

The East London line trains / stations are not accessible are they? So why do the buses need to be

I expect it's down to reasonable practicality being appliable only to existing infrastructure and arrangements. With the bus service being a 'new' service it can not be exempt from access requirements. Whereas to make all stations on the ELL fully accesible was not reasonably practical. Even with the 'new' ELL there are constraints that will prevent full accessibility, but any new works will have to be made with improved accessibility in mind.

[Deleted]

author=aspect board=general thread=1144014820 post=1144014820]Hmm, this forum doesn't seem to have a section for matters pertaining to London Underground Replacement Buses ....


Thought those viewing might like to see the two historic UndergrounD style designs (diamonds and bars) used on some of the First bus fleet based at Dagenham Depot.

With TfL now clamping down heavily on innovation in contractor's service bus route displays, one can probably assume LUL bus blinds will soon be on the agenda which may be good or bad depending upon the operator !

further to that thread from last year, the buses used on the ELW replacement buses have the 'heritage blinds', which is a nice touch.

see HERE, with it on the front with no destination and HERE

if only TfL could resurrect this stylish logo.

[Tomcakes]

What people seem to forget is it isn't a legal necessity to have low floor buses until 2017 - so they could create a new service with step entry buses and it would be fine.

[superteacher]

Many rail replacement services still use step entrance buses - you even get treated to the occasional RM or RT when Blue Triangle are involved!

[Oracle]

I used the diamond-style UndergrounD logo on the inside front page (Editorial) of the magazines that I edited. Yes, UndergrounD of course!

[Tomcakes]

I still fail to see why TfL insist on all buses being low floor, especially given that it's probably not actually improved the numbers of low floor buses accross the country.

[Deleted]

well, the actual problem is, if they wanted step-entrance buses, is in sourcing the buses as pretty much the only step entrance buses are trainers, and they are starting to be low floor now as ABS is a requirement for test buses.

Also the LEZ (Low Emission Zone) it coming into force next year with pre-1973 vehicles exempt, it will leave Metrobuses and others useless. The alternative is an Olympian or other modern step-entrance bus, but those are still in high demand throughout the country.

These buses won't be disposed of immediately after the ELL replacement though.

Justification enough, TC ? ;D

[Tomcakes]

Sourcing the buses shouldn't be a problem, First have enough non-low-floor buses kicking around to sink a ship.

[Deleted]

Interesting pictures on the side the replacement buses, London Underground rail replacement with Electrostars on the side.

[joeapprenticesuper]

i really hate people who hate tfl for havin onlly low foor buses, kim a bus fan and luv the vrs and nationals ect but its 2007 disabled peole have rights to acsses on buses how selfish people are who want old buse ect what bout pepole who cant walk or find it imposable to get up the steps what are they spoused to say "oh look nice old leyland national nice old routemaste lovley but we cant get on it " what a discrase thank god tfl who unlike the captalist likes of first arriva ect have gone 100% low foor i have to travel on london buses every day and im glad it is so lovley buses warm, no noise and every 5- 10 mins, why on earth would you want to creat a new service with step entrence buses onlly? i would luv it as a bus spotter but dont think the 2007 public would sorry but the days of step entrence have long gone thank god

[Deleted]

joeapprenticesuper said:

i really hate people who hate tfl for havin onlly low foor buses, kim a bus fan and luv the vrs and nationals ect but its 2007 disabled peole have rights to acsses on buses how selfish people are who want old buse ect what bout pepole who cant walk or find it imposable to get up the steps what are they spoused to say "oh look nice old leyland national nice old routemaste lovley but we cant get on it " what a discrase thank god tfl who unlike the captalist likes of first arriva ect have gone 100% low foor i have to travel on london buses every day and im glad it is so lovley buses warm, no noise and every 5- 10 mins, why on earth would you want to creat a new service with step entrence buses onlly? i would luv it as a bus spotter but dont think the 2007 public would sorry but the days of step entrence have long gone thank god

The ELL isn't providing a cross Thames bus service because TfL can't source a low floor bus suitable -although a stepped bus would be available.

Now the ELL bus service is replacing a rail service that also wasn't accessible. So affectively we are now removing a service to the entire population because we can't offer the replacement service to a section of the community that couldn't use the service in the first place.

Sadly just like the Health & Safety at work Act and the Data Protection Act, the Disablity Discrimination Act is being used by pi$$ poor organisations as an excuse not to offer the community the service they want.

Greater freedom for those unable to use current services is of course important, but as a community we all need to decide if these changes are worth the cost and the possible removal of "non-complienet" services. Now 100% of buses are accessible, have we seen the end of the subsidies taxi-card service? Will we see the end of mobility allowance and the blue badge scheme?

My suggestion would be to remove the mobility allowance in all but the most severe cases of lack of mobility and use this money to boost a low floor public transport system.

[Tomcakes]

joeapprenticesuper said:

the days of step entrence have long gone thank god

Er, if you would care to look outside of the capital, the days of step entrance buses have not long gone! In fact only a couple of years ago we got a load of Olympians which were "new buses", because London didn't want them anymore.

Quite simply, the TfL tender system means companies such as First and Arriva buy new low floor buses for London, if they weren't forced to they wouldn't.

[c5]

tombeevers said:

joeapprenticesuper said:

the days of step entrence have long gone thank god

Er, if you would care to look outside of the capital, the days of step entrance buses have not long gone! In fact only a couple of years ago we got a load of Olympians which were "new buses", because London didn't want them anymore.

Quite simply, the TfL tender system means companies such as First and Arriva buy new low floor buses for London, if they weren't forced to they wouldn't.

There is also the supply and demand.
Some places like, have very little subsidising (unlike the huge amounts of money that subsidise London's Buses ). they have frequent routes and a high number of low-floor buses. The operator has chosen to do this as; a) they have the money and d) to increase numbers.

A lot of new buses are leased and not owned by the operator. Even the big groups lease some of their buses, albeit through themselves! rather than a firm like Dawson Rentals.

[Oracle]

I thought that there has been a tunnel bus service: on checking I had read this page:
www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/395.htm

[Colin]

That link has already appeared in this thread - see reply #4 on page 1

Edit: infact if you read back through this thread, you'll also see in Aspect's reply #6 that the 395 no longer runs, and therefore no service buses now use the Rotherhithe tunnel