Staff shortages

[Tomcakes]

I see both today and yesterday, and it seems to have been the case for a while, that "There are delays on the Circle / H&C due to a shortage of staff".

Given that this has been an ongoing problem, shouldn't it have been rectified?

If there are genuinely not enough staff, recruit extra to cover..?

[superteacher]

It's been going on for ages. I believe that there are issues at Edgware Road depot . . . maybe someone who knows more could elaborate?

Suffice to say, the Circle / H&C are the only lines that consistently have this staff shortage issue, although unusually, they were reporting minor delays on the Met's Watford branch today due to staff shortage.

[chrish]

I thought the issues were down to a sick list as long as your arm. Odd how this strange disease only affect people from certain depots though isn't it!

There is a waiting list of people wanting to go to Edgware Road depot as I understand it, so thats not the problem. You just can't replace staff with new ones because they are ill or "ill" (you decide!)

[metman]

Maybe they don't want to drive the C stock?

[swedishblue]

The problem occurs at the weekend because the management at Edgware Road fill all of the uncovered duties on a Monday to Friday basis first. This then looks better on the snapshots taken of the service as Mon-Fri are the ones that count in terms of service performance, and unbelievably, no one bothers about Saturdays and Sundays. It would maybe be prudent for the powers that be to remember that fare paying people travel at weekends as well.

[railtechnician]

swedishblue said:

The problem occurs at the weekend because the management at Edgware Road fill all of the uncovered duties on a Monday to Friday basis first. This then looks better on the snapshots taken of the service as Mon-Fri are the ones that count in terms of service performance, and unbelievably, no one bothers about Saturdays and Sundays. It would maybe be prudent for the powers that be to remember that fare paying people travel at weekends as well.

What do you expect? Running a business is more important than providing a service and it has been that way since LUL was effectively privatised!

[c5]

swedishblue said:

The problem occurs at the weekend because the management at Edgware Road fill all of the uncovered duties on a Monday to Friday basis first. This then looks better on the snapshots taken of the service as Mon-Fri are the ones that count in terms of service performance, and unbelievably, no one bothers about Saturdays and Sundays. It would maybe be prudent for the powers that be to remember that fare paying people travel at weekends as well.

And then ironically Metronet tend to have their cancellations due to No-ok Rolling Stock in the week, so there would be cancellations any way.

And its not really Edgware Road management that decide this it's the company as a whole, just more acute at Edgware Road.

[trainopd78]

railtechnician said:

swedishblue said:

The problem occurs at the weekend because the management at Edgware Road fill all of the uncovered duties on a Monday to Friday basis first. This then looks better on the snapshots taken of the service as Mon-Fri are the ones that count in terms of service performance, and unbelievably, no one bothers about Saturdays and Sundays. It would maybe be prudent for the powers that be to remember that fare paying people travel at weekends as well.

What do you expect? Running a business is more important than providing a service and it has been that way since LUL was effectively privatised!

If you look at the way the Service managers and service controllers run the Picc and District you'll see how very true that really is at certain locations.

[ianvisits]

railtechnician said:

What do you expect? Running a business is more important than providing a service and it has been that way since LUL was effectively privatised!

To be fair, unless you hike the prices to even more unbeliveable levels, there has to be a point where the service will be limited by the available cash to pay for it.

[swedishblue]

c5 said:

swedishblue said:

The problem occurs at the weekend because the management at Edgware Road fill all of the uncovered duties on a Monday to Friday basis first. This then looks better on the snapshots taken of the service as Mon-Fri are the ones that count in terms of service performance, and unbelievably, no one bothers about Saturdays and Sundays. It would maybe be prudent for the powers that be to remember that fare paying people travel at weekends as well.

And then ironically Metronet tend to have their cancellations due to No-ok Rolling Stock in the week, so there would be cancellations any way.

And its not really Edgware Road management that decide this it's the company as a whole, just more acute at Edgware Road.

Indeed, and the top management are happy for this to go on, as their figures for Mon-Fri look good on all lines. I just missed a train on the Hammersmith road the other week, think it was a Saturday, and the next 2 were cancelled with the third running late. I was stood there for 29 minutes while the station PA was announcing a "Good Service"! I'm lucky as i get free travel, if i had to pay for it i wouldn't be very happy.

[c5]

swedishblue said:

c5 said:

And then ironically Metronet tend to have their cancellations due to No-ok Rolling Stock in the week, so there would be cancellations any way.

And its not really Edgware Road management that decide this it's the company as a whole, just more acute at Edgware Road.

Indeed, and the top management are happy for this to go on, as their figures for Mon-Fri look good on all lines. I just missed a train on the Hammersmith road the other week, think it was a Saturday, and the next 2 were cancelled with the third running late. I was stood there for 29 minutes while the station PA was announcing a "Good Service"! I'm lucky as i get free travel, if i had to pay for it i wouldn't be very happy.

And the Hammersmith branch does get the better end of the Circle and Hammersmith service.

As has been said before, there has been staff shortages, both for No Train Op and also PNRs for a long time. Only recently has the truth been put out rather than blamig it on "congestion" or leaving a Good sic Service.

And dont forget that senior managers have a different bonus scheme to operational staff!

[swedishblue]

c5 said:

swedishblue said:

Indeed, and the top management are happy for this to go on, as their figures for Mon-Fri look good on all lines. I just missed a train on the Hammersmith road the other week, think it was a Saturday, and the next 2 were cancelled with the third running late. I was stood there for 29 minutes while the station PA was announcing a "Good Service"! I'm lucky as i get free travel, if i had to pay for it i wouldn't be very happy.

And the Hammersmith branch does get the better end of the Circle and Hammersmith service.

As has been said before, there has been staff shortages, both for No Train Op and also PNRs for a long time. Only recently has the truth been put out rather than blamig it on "congestion" or leaving a Good sic Service.

And dont forget that senior managers have a different bonus scheme to operational staff!

While there are staff shortages due to sickness, there are others with different reasons that the management seem reluctant to take action over. All i will say is that it relates to a handful of T/Ops refusing to pick up and do the job they are paid to do, and all for different and varying reasons.
The "truth" has to be put out now, as this instruction has come from a very high place. Too many people were querying "congestion" and the reasons for it.

[superteacher]

Typical really - LUL go all PC and sack Emma Clarke, but they don't have the balls to deal with a few militant train operators. Thye should forget all the image and spin, and deal with the real issues.

Well that's fine, because passengers will be very happy listening to a new voice on the DVA announcing a good service, while they are waiting 30 minutes for their next H&C.

[Tomcakes]

If there are operators refusing to work, surely the solution to that is to P45 them?

As for ill staff, can't you bring on extra staff anyway to temporarily replace them? Proving that people aren't ill is probably very difficult, but sick or "sick" someone would need to cover their duties.

[swedishblue]

tombeevers said:

If there are operators refusing to work, surely the solution to that is to P45 them?

As for ill staff, can't you bring on extra staff anyway to temporarily replace them? Proving that people aren't ill is probably very difficult, but sick or "sick" someone would need to cover their duties.

Unfortunately, the higher ups don't want to upset the staff there after the "squash" incident. Most of us reckon they should get rid of the dross, if they have industrial action it won't last long, so take the hit and then get on with running a railway. It will also send a message out to others. T/Op is a good job, it's not physical hard work as such, you get good holidays, good pension etc etc, but unfortunately that isn't good enough for some.

[superteacher]

Sick or "sick", if their attendance at work is poor over an extended period, then they should be dismissed. If people are that ill consistenty, I don't want them driving a train that I'm on thank you very much!

[metman]

Didn't some Circle duties used to be carried out by District crews in the 70s using CO/CP stock, perhaps that's what we need! <Thinks> about to get a beating from all the District T/Ops!!!

[swedishblue]

metman said:

Didn't some Circle duties used to be carried out by District crews in the 70s using CO/CP stock, perhaps that's what we need! <Thinks> about to get a beating from all the District T/Ops!!!

Met T/Ops used to come down and do Circles (pre OPO and when the depot was at Baker St.) but i don't know about District crews doing Circles.

[metman]

I found some photos on the net showing CO/CP being used on the Circle Line in the 1970s on some Sundays. These trains were all used on the District in those days so some crews would have been trained on the whole Circle line.
rides.webshots.com/photo/2821436380100069934EMPEda
geoff-plumb.fotopic.net/p35007521.html

Also during strike action, District crews used CO/CP stock to maintain the Circle Service in the 1970s. (7 car R stock was too long by this point)

[tubeprune]

metman said:

I found some photos on the net showing CO/CP being used on the Circle Line in the 1970s on some Sundays. These trains were all used on the District in those days so some crews would have been trained on the whole Circle line.

In the early 60s when I was at Neasden, all Met depots were trained for the Circle. Most of the work was done by Baker St and Neasden. Later I moved to Baker St. Baker St also covered the Wood line and Hammersmiths. In those days we could do 8 Circles in 8 hours including grub. We had CO/CPs on Hammersmiths and Circles. The last of them were converted from Metadynes just before I got there.

The District only did 2 Circles on each side on Sundays in my day. They also did some trips to Liverpool St and Aldgate on Saturdays and Bank Holidays. They used Q, R or CP, whatever was available. When the C Stock was delivered COs began to get cascaded onto the District with our CPs. Some 3-car units got made into 2-car units (trailer scrapped) so they could form 8-car trains. They replaced the Q Stock. Then they started the 7-car programme for CO/CP and R Stocks. There were odd occasions during this period when a 5-car District was used on the Circle and then they stopped District crews doing it. I haven't got the date to hand. Anyone remember?

Also during strike action, District crews used CO/CP stock to maintain the Circle Service in the 1970s. (7 car R stock was too long by this point)

I never heard of this happening while I worked there.

[Deleted]

There now follows a short dialogue in support of the much-maligned Edgware Road depot. I'm not going to sit back and let people bad-mouth the best depots on the combine (Hammersmith and Barking included), especially when a lot of what is being said in this thread is just rumour and heresay without experience or facts to back it up.

I trust some of you never worked on the C&H? Blaming "militant" drivers for years of bad management, extremely complicated operating requirements, unreasonable duty scheduling, constant late-running, complete lack of interest from District control... to name a few. You sound like an Evening Standard journalist.

Yes, Edgware Road has a reputation for militancy, and sometimes that is justified, other times it is not. When certain well liked and high profile person(s) within the depot (and i'm not just talking about drivers here) were stood down the other year, "actions" were taken to ensure their reinstatement. I would hope that my colleagues would stand up for me if i was unreasonably stitched up as well. Solidarity is a wonderful thing, and had anything happened to the person(s) involved it would have been a total injustice.

The problems on the C&H have a lot more behind them than militant train operators. The "squash" incident actually caused rifts among drivers rather than united them in militancy. Whatever people's opinions on the person involved, I should point out that he was completely stitched up and this was proved by the fact he won his tribunal and was found to have been unfairly dismissed in law. The Evening Standard completely assasinated the bloke's character and all LU employees should know from years of experience not to beleive a word that rag says.

You would not believe the incompetency of certain DMTs at that place. Any DMT, anywhere on the combine doesn't know they're born til they've done a duty on Edgware Road desk! I bet if you broke down the times of disruption due to "staff shortage" and the times of good service, you would see the same few decent DMT's names on duty at the good times, and the same few incapables at the bad times.

As for PNR's... If you haven't done a Whitechapel rounder followed by 3 Circles straight in the same cab on the back half of an 8hour dead early then you have no right to comment on the issue. It is absolute tedium at the best of times but downright dangerous when you are knackered. If duty schedules put the maximum Circles on a train down to 2 (you could still do 3 or 4 in a half with stepbacks) I reckon you would cut the PNRs in half overnight. You also have to remember that there is a culture of fear in some other depots where drivers are scared to ask to get taken off for PNRs for fear of victimisation by managers. Just have a sniff in Kennington Loop or Queens Park north sheds for confirmation of this.

Add all this to the constant late running due to the nature of the lines, amount of junctions and District Line stitch-ups. You start to get people going over their time. Then the Framework Agreement comes into play and trains have to be stabled. In order to combat this Inner Rails are constantly diverted to Hammersmith, Outers round at Moorgate to get back to Edgware Road for their right time. Thus decimating the Circle service, but keeping staff within their duty parameters - it's better to short-trip or divert a train than leave it sitting cancelled in Farringdon or Triangle. Then you have trains coming into the wrong platform, reforms that somehow get lost between Baker St, the signaller, the DMT and the driver resulting in late pick ups. It goes on and on and has nothing to do with militancy, just that age-old LUL problem of complete lack of communication.

Of course there are a few people who stand up for themselves, but all they are doing is a stricter-than-some interpretation of existing rules and agreements. Due to the mistrust of management in the depot (see cases above), people are merely "covering their backs" by following the rules to the letter. These people are not breaking the rules, they are following them! How can you say they should be sacked for doing their job properly?

Sickness is high, but depot morale is low. LUL have an attendance procedure to use against those who fail to meet the standard. If it was as bad as some of you lot reckon there'd be sackings every week. There isn't, so the LUL attendance standard is surely being met.

As for getting temporary staff in? Are you sure you're not Ken Livingstone in disguise?

Thats all.

Prakash.

[metman]

I read it somewhere-I'll try and dig it out. For some reason the Circle drivers were on strike so District trains and crews were used. If only I can find it...

Is it true that most Circle P stock had O stock motors at the inner ends left over from the Uxbridge trains?
(CP)DM-T-(CO)DM+(CO)DM-T-(CP)DM

It is strange that many trailers were scrapped, weren't a load converted out of Q38 trailers in 1958-60 and 1962? Was it the Q38s that got scrapped or just whatever was at hand?

Finally....7 car CO/CP? How common was this? They must have run as DM-DM+DM-T-DM+DM-DM. That would need a huge amount of 2 car units! They used to have a couple running on the Uxbridge service back in the day!

[metman]

Interesting insight Prakash. Life sounds tough on the Circle!

[superteacher]

Thanks Prakash for the info - glad someone has spoken out from the "inside" as it were.
I was certainly not bad mouthing the depot, but it sounds like that something needs to be done to sort out the mess.
Out of interest, what did drivers do years ago before the invention of PNR - and has there always been a maximum driving time.
Are things more difficult now for drivers than back in the 60s and 70s?

[ianvisits]

prakash said:

As for getting temporary staff in? Are you sure you're not Ken Livingstone in disguise?

While your insight was interesting, that final comment really riles me.

What is Transport for London - a transport network, or a job security program?

If getting in temporary staff will solve a temporary problem and is financially viable - then do it.

Sod the politics - just get the service working.

[superteacher]

Whatever people's views on this - one thing is for sure, this would never happen in Hong Kong, Tokyo etc! One thing I will say is that for the salary received by T/OP's, they shouldn't expect an easy ride. I know many T/OP's who certainly don't expect this, but a few don't realise how lucky they are IMO. There needs to be more flexibility on both sides, and working to rule is not one of them. If I worked to rule in my job, it simply wouldn't get done! I'd kill to habe a 40 hour week, let alone a 35 hour one! On the other hand, the management are responsible for delievering the train service, and they are clearly failing in this. I'm surprised more has not been made of this issue in political circles. If it was the Central or Northern line experiencing this all of the time, I'm sure it would have been sorted by now.

[swedishblue]

ianvisits said:

prakash said:

As for getting temporary staff in? Are you sure you're not Ken Livingstone in disguise?

While your insight was interesting, that final comment really riles me.

What is Transport for London - a transport network, or a job security program?

If getting in temporary staff will solve a temporary problem and is financially viable - then do it.

Sod the politics - just get the service working.

Well said. Some of us worked on the C&H when we did 4 inners and 4 outers. then it was reduced to 3+3 and a Whitechapel (later Barking) rounder. There weren't PNR's going in all the time, especially on the last trip! We also used to do a special service on Bank Hols, pick up at Baker St. go to Hammersmith, then around the outer to Whitechapel, then come back to Edgware road, round the inner to Hammersmith.
I appreciate that there are a lot of good T/Ops at Edgware Road, the depot gets a bad name because of a small minority. The same must also be said for DMT's, signallers etc, and if they are under performing and causing some of the problems through missed reforms etc as Prakash says, then they should also be brought to account.
The problem with the District line, not answering C stocks on the radio etc, has gone on for years and in this day and age should be dealt with. Problem is, no one in the higher management can be bothered to deal with it. It will obviously take a serious incident, and perhaps fatalities, to make someone sit up and pay attention and sort the District out. Maybe things will change as i hear that their Controllers are moving to Baker St., but i wouldn't hold my breath.

[SE13]

tombeevers said:

If there are operators refusing to work, surely the solution to that is to P45 them?

As for ill staff, can't you bring on extra staff anyway to temporarily replace them? Proving that people aren't ill is probably very difficult, but sick or "sick" someone would need to cover their duties.

There are too many proceedures to go down when attempting to terminate a contract. It's all legal paperwork, and I don't know what! Simply sacking them leaves the employer open to potential law-suits, so every avenue has to be covered.

The general rule of thumb is that if an employee has three periods of sickness within a specified period of time, then the employer can follow the disciplinary path. Generally the worse thing an employee could expect is a verbal warning, so there are still at least three further levels to go through before summary dismissal. The warning only lasts for six months, so they keep vanishing, making it quite difficult to get the the final level.

That all said, different companies follow different proceedures, some even allow full pay with sickness. The company I work for dock the bonuses of employees with excessive time absent, and will only pay SSP for absence, and then only if a medical form is filled in with permission to speak to the employees GP should they so wish.

I suppose that if they can get away with it, then they will!

[Colin]

metman said:

Didn't some Circle duties used to be carried out by District crews in the 70s using CO/CP stock, perhaps that's what we need! <Thinks> about to get a beating from all the District T/Ops!!!

Wash your mouth out!! ;D ;D

That's actually not as bad an idea as it sounds though - I certainly wouldn't fancy taking on a full day on Circles, but a few rounders here & there shared around would surely help the morale side of things.

_{**ducks to avoid the flak from my colleagues**}

swedishblue said:

It will obviously take a serious incident, and perhaps fatalities, to make someone sit up and pay attention and sort the District out.

Whilst I don't wish to dwell on the subject, or really see any further discussion on it, I'm aware (as are others here) that the incident last January involving the two vandals at Barking resulted in quite a slating of LUL by the coroner - I'd be surprised (and rather concerned) if improvements don't come about because of that incident.

[Deleted]

My comment about temporary staff had nothing to do with job security for p*sstakers. LUL operational staff, by law, have to be licensed for the job they do and face regular competence assurance checks to make sure they are up to scratch. Taking temps into a safety critical job such as train driver would only serve to water down safety and competence. They would feel no loyalty to the job that they could be terminated from tomorrow and therefore be far more likely than permanent workers to cut corners and skimp on safe working practises. It takes about 6 months or so to train a driver from scratch these days. How could LUL justify all that company time and expense if the staff were not permanent. Training someone on a permanent contract is an investment, someone who you may lay off at any time is a waste of money.

As for the Ken Livingstone jibe, it was merely a referral to the agency staff he's got fully kitted out in LUL uniforms complete with CSA name badges on the "Overground" section of the Bakerloo, checking tickets, that are untrained and unlicensed for operating procedures, and to a qualified member of staff could easily be mistaken for someone who knows what they're doing. Also the way he's treated the East London Line staff winds me up too.

Sorry for "riling" anyone but i'd rather have professional, licensed, trained and permanent staff who chuck the odd sickie than Joe Bloggs from the Job Centre who doesn't know if he'll still be here next week.