Bakerloo back to Watford Junction

[Deleted]

I got a lift with a train op on the bakerloo this evening and he mentioned that it has been confirmed that the line will be extended back to watford as the silverlink franchise is due to expire in 2008.

This came as a bit of surprise. Is there any truth to this?

[Colin]

There was another thread on that HERE

[Deleted]

I've heard many rumours on this subject but the train op informed me that their line standards manager had told them that it will happen but no timescale had been set.

[Deleted]

What was it, 1984 that Bakerloo stopped running north of H & W?

[Deleted]

tubeoperator92 said:

What was it, 1984 that Bakerloo stopped running north of H & W?

According to TFL website Queens Pk - Watford was withdrawn in 1982, with peak hour journeys being extended back to Harrow & W in 1984

[Deleted]

Actually I reckon pre 1979 the Bakerloo must have been one of the better tube lines to be on. The run from Elephant to Watford is quite long and Stanmore is a fair way as well. Was there very much revesing at Queens Pk in those days?

[Deleted]

alexh said:

According to TFL website Queens Pk - Watford was withdrawn in 1982, with peak hour journeys being extended back to Harrow & W in 1984

Ah, thanks for that little correction Alexh, I was a bonnie wee lad at the time...

[Deleted]

tubeoperator92 said:

alexh said:

According to TFL website Queens Pk - Watford was withdrawn in 1982, with peak hour journeys being extended back to Harrow & W in 1984

Ah, thanks for that little correction Alexh, I was a bonnie wee lad at the time...

I wasn't even that..........1982 is when I was born!

[Deleted]

alexh said:

I wasn't even that..........1982 is when I was born!

DON'T!!! You're making me feel my age now!!! ;D ;D ;D

[seem to be veering slightly off-thread here...]

[Deleted]

1989 for me!

*sticks tongue out at tubeoperator92* ;D

[Deleted]

I have a photo of a 38 stock at watford junction but I'm not sure when it was taken.

Does anyone know if the 72's made it to watford junction before the service was withdrawn in 82?

[greatplum]

jubblyman said:

I got a lift with a train op on the bakerloo this evening and he mentioned that it has been confirmed that the line will be extended back to watford as the silverlink franchise is due to expire in 2008.

This came as a bit of surprise. Is there any truth to this?

How much work would need to be done to the line if they were to revert from NR to LU again...

[Deleted]

I've been up the line to watford junction recently. It looks as if the negative rail would have to be relaid (its still there but the porcelain pots have been taken away) and the signalling system worked on.

Apart from that, the line hasnt changed much since 82.

[Deleted]

jubblyman said:

Does anyone know if the 72's made it to watford junction before the service was withdrawn in 82?

Yes they did, 1972 Mk2 stock ran with the 38s on the Bakerloo, including the the four peak hour journeys to and from Watford Junction, this continued until the opening of the Jubbly where on they were transferred to.

[Deleted]

biolizard said:

1989 for me!

*sticks tongue out at tubeoperator92* ;D

Now, you won't be doing that when you're as old as me! [Just add 14 to your age and you get a rough idea ow old I am... - good news is, I still retain my teenage looks, so ]

[frankpick]

alexh said:

Actually I reckon pre 1979 the Bakerloo must have been one of the better tube lines to be on. The run from Elephant to Watford is quite long and Stanmore is a fair way as well. Was there very much revesing at Queens Pk in those days?

Everything used to reverse at QP. As I recall there were only 4 trains in the peak to/from Waford.

[Deleted]

frankpick said:

alexh said:

Actually I reckon pre 1979 the Bakerloo must have been one of the better tube lines to be on. The run from Elephant to Watford is quite long and Stanmore is a fair way as well. Was there very much revesing at Queens Pk in those days?

Everything used to reverse at QP. As I recall there were only 4 trains in the peak to/from Waford.

True, However in addition to the 4 Watford trains in the morning and evening peaks there were a number of H&W reverser's as well.

[Deleted]

I work in S&SD and confirm that this is being seriously looked at.

We would take over stations from Queens Park to Watford Jn (excl H&W) from Silverlink. Service 6 tph from H&W to Watford Jn.

The Silverlink Metro sub-franchise is controlled by London Rail, part of TfL. They're considering running a service Queens Pk - North London Line. The Euston - Watford dc service would be withdrawn. Both South Hampstead and Kilburn High Rd would become part of the new service Queens Pk - Stratford which would put more capacity on the NLL and give the option of re-opening Primrose Hill.

We'll have to see if the money is available and if the business case stacks up.

[Deleted]

Doesn't sound too good for users of South Hamstead who want to get to Euston!

[Deleted]

Good thing they're a short walk from Swiss Cottage on the Jubilee. Straight run down to Baker Street and then Circl/Met to Euston Sq.

[Deleted]

seniorplanner said:

Good thing they're a short walk from Swiss Cottage on the Jubilee. Straight run down to Baker Street and then Circl/Met to Euston Sq.

Lets hope there arn't anymore combined Met and Jubilee weekend closures then!

[thc]

seniorplanner said:

I work in S&SD and confirm that this is being seriously looked at.

We would take over stations from Queens Park to Watford Jn (excl H&W) from Silverlink. Service 6 tph from H&W to Watford Jn.

The Silverlink Metro sub-franchise is controlled by London Rail, part of TfL. They're considering running a service Queens Pk - North London Line. The Euston - Watford dc service would be withdrawn. Both South Hampstead and Kilburn High Rd would become part of the new service Queens Pk - Stratford which would put more capacity on the NLL and give the option of re-opening Primrose Hill.

We'll have to see if the money is available and if the business case stacks up.

Whilst not wishing to run before walking and all that metaphorical claptrap, would it not make more operational sense to run the proposed new Stratford - QP service to Willesden Junction LL? Or, heaven forbid, extend the ELL phase 2 from Highbury and Islington (well, the proposed Caledonian Road turnback siding) to WJLL instead?

THC

[q8]

thc said:

seniorplanner said:

I work in S&SD and confirm that this is being seriously looked at.

We would take over stations from Queens Park to Watford Jn (excl H&W) from Silverlink. Service 6 tph from H&W to Watford Jn.

The Silverlink Metro sub-franchise is controlled by London Rail, part of TfL. They're considering running a service Queens Pk - North London Line. The Euston - Watford dc service would be withdrawn. Both South Hampstead and Kilburn High Rd would become part of the new service Queens Pk - Stratford which would put more capacity on the NLL and give the option of re-opening Primrose Hill.

We'll have to see if the money is available and if the business case stacks up.

Whilst not wishing to run before walking and all that metaphorical claptrap, would it not make more operational sense to run the proposed new Stratford - QP service to Willesden Junction LL? Or, heaven forbid, extend the ELL phase 2 from Highbury and Islington (well, the proposed Caledonian Road turnback siding) to WJLL instead?THC

Oh that would never do thc. It smacks too much of common sense doncha know?

[Deleted]

None of these proposals are incompatible, but you've got to plug away on different jobs at different times...

[thc]

seniorplanner said:

None of these proposals are incompatible, but you've got to plug away on different jobs at different times...

Point taken SP but we do get excited by all the possibilities... ;D

THC

[Ben]

I read somewhere (can't remember where - again!) that the preferd option now stands at redundant 67 being converted to third rail to take over the stretch from Watford Junction to Harrow. However, I've got a couple of questions:

Where will be the southern point that the 67's terminate?

And would it not just be cheaper to reinstate the fourth rail all the way back to Watford Junction to start with, instead of converting four rail trains to three rail trains.

[The only advantage that I can see of converting the 67's to three rail will be that when (if) the Island line buys them, they will already be 3rd rail!]

[whoosh]

I've read that 1967 may be used aswell. But I haven't heard about conversions to 3rd rail though

I think there are a few cars of 1972 stock running on the Victoria Line. They run with the cabs in the middle of the trains as they haven't got Automatic Train Operation equipment fitted.

Presumably when the new Victoria 2009 stock arrives these 1972 cars will be transferred back to the Bakerloo, along with some 1967 stock cars to make up the extra trains needed for the extension of the service to Watford Junction.
I expect then, that the reverse will happen with the 1972 stock cars becoming active driving cabs again, and the 1967 stock cabs being marshalled as middle cabs.

[Deleted]

benedict said:

And would it not just be cheaper to reinstate the fourth rail all the way back to Watford Junction to start with, instead of converting four rail trains to three rail trains.

The fourth rail is still there, for at least part of the way:

underground-history.co.uk/croxley.php

[Ben]

Ahh, but its not in an operational condition; someone else said it had been taken off its insulating rests during track replacement.

[towerman]

This story was going the rounds about 8 years ago,but using redundant 83TS,till someone pointed out the maintenance depot(Stonebridge Pk)uses 4th rail.If the Bakerloo ever goes back to Watford it'll be cheaper and less hassle to reinstate the 4th rail.BTW,if it does ever happen,would Baker St(Bakerloo)SCC take over the signalling past Queen's Pk?