Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 12, 2006 17:12:44 GMT
In contrast to Bededict I prefer an LED destination display. I find it no harder to read (when it is bright enough) and the flexibility it gives in terms of the messages it can display, and the ease with which they can be changed, means the destination on the front should be the destination of the train - no matter how unusual or unplanned it is. For example, no trains normally terminate at Paddington, but the H&C was doing just that while Edgware Road was out of commission following the 7th of July attacks. While I hope the cause is never repeated, it is possible the service pattern might be. In this case the trains with manual blinds could not display a "Paddington" destination (see the earlier discussion regarding space constraints of blinds, I think in this thread or the 2009 stock thread on the Victoria Line board). Trains with an LCD display could display the correct destination - to the benefit of passengers. Similarly, if the destination of a train is changed en-route because the service is up the wall, it is much better for all concerned if the driver can spend 2 seconds changing the LCD from, say, Tower Hill to Mansion House rather than 2 minutes scrolling through the blind or not changing it - adding to the confusion.
If possbile, the scrolling in-car displays should show only the stations the train is going to call at - not the ones it has already visited as this is both annoying and confusing. For example, if you get on a train at Paddington you hope is going to take you Liverpool Street, and the first station you see on the display is Royal Oak - are you going to get off again assuming you've got the wrong train or risk going in the wrong direction (and possibly get a larger/penalty fare for zone 2 if you only have zone 1), you might not have time to wait for the next one to show before the train leaves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2006 18:20:03 GMT
Is there talkback between the handle-puller and the driver? If so is there any way (technically and/or rule-book sanctioned) method of remotely resetting an alarm if you are informed it was an accident or inquisitive child? Wouldn't stop the chavs, but would help reduce delay caused by kids with helpful parents. There is talkback, and the driver can continue to the next station before resetting the alarm. The alarm will only stop when the handle is physically reset in the car. Also, the alarms on the refurbs could be reset by station staff using a J door key, although I'm not sure if that is actually sanctioned.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 12, 2006 21:44:14 GMT
Can I ask that the PEA's are placed at a decent height away from kids? Since the refurbs were introduced on the District with much lower PEA points, I've been pulled down 6 times, and every time it has been a child playing with the handle! I know what your saying but it is a difficult compromise to reach (no pun intended!). We are bound by RVAR on the the issue of handles in RVAR compliant areas. They are buttons now and not handles, which may deter the 'small child grabbing the shiny red handle' scenario but on the other hand may start a whole new 'small child depressing the shiny red button' trend!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 12, 2006 21:46:26 GMT
Is there talkback between the handle-puller and the driver? If so is there any way (technically and/or rule-book sanctioned) method of remotely resetting an alarm if you are informed it was an accident or inquisitive child? Wouldn't stop the chavs, but would help reduce delay caused by kids with helpful parents. There will be a talk back facility and the driver will also have saloon CCTV (when stationary). On the issue of remote reset, there are no plans at this time but it has been raised as a possible requirement.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 12, 2006 21:57:10 GMT
Sorry prjb, in retrospect some of what I said was perhaps naieve, and the wording poor. Hey, no need to apologise this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to 'get stuck in' as it were! An example of this would be destination blinds. A flourescent tube with a canvas blind in front of it is based on extreamly old technology. But its simple to fix (surely?) and is very clear to read from the platform. Its replacement on modern stocks has been LED's which I'm guessing must be more conveniant somehow. But then again you need a processing/control unit to tell which LED's to light, and you need the LED's to all be the same colour, brightness, size, etc. And, though its just my opinion, due to the fact that letters are pixelated instead of actual written shapes, they can be more difficult to read. We are hoping that the DMI type display on the 'S' will be more advanced than the current 'D' Stock refurb, so in terms of readability it shuold be excellent. One of the problems with a blind is that someone has to wind it around, and on a railway with so many destinations possible (remember 7 cars will be C&H/District) it is far more user friendly to go with DMI unit. the seats in a 38ts are more comfortable than a 92ts by far... It just seems to me that more pride was taken in older stocks than in modern ones and it shows to the passenger. Plastic is cheap and shows it. Wood and brass arent cheap and dont look it. I dont imagine for one second that there will be wood or brass in the new stock because of the practicalities and expence, but it does look nicer:) I guess my only point there is the ambiance, but then again thats an obvious thing. And I'm sure that the designers will endevour to do the best with what they've got to play with. We are all hoping for a train that is 'world class', the beauty of our team is that we are all committed to getting a good quality product representative of both our heritage and our current corporate image. We are not just paying lip service to this, we really do want to get it right. There have been mistakes in the past (92ts seating!) and we know that we will make some too. What we are trying hard to do is to cover every angle as much as we can. Which is why all of your comments are so important.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 12, 2006 22:00:36 GMT
the alarms on the refurbs could be reset by station staff using a J door key, although I'm not sure if that is actually sanctioned. This is no different to today, provided the driver and the staff who reset the handle have a complete understanding I don't think this is an issue.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 12, 2006 22:04:21 GMT
If possbile, the scrolling in-car displays should show only the stations the train is going to call at - not the ones it has already visited as this is both annoying and confusing. For example, if you get on a train at Paddington you hope is going to take you Liverpool Street, and the first station you see on the display is Royal Oak - are you going to get off again assuming you've got the wrong train or risk going in the wrong direction (and possibly get a larger/penalty fare for zone 2 if you only have zone 1), you might not have time to wait for the next one to show before the train leaves. I'm not dealing with the Customer Information System (CIS) because we have a dedicated member of staff on the team for this. We are looking at implementing a comprehensive and intelligent system, which is why we have a dedicated person dealing with it. What you say makes perfect sense and is exactly the sort of functionality that we are working towards.
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Jun 13, 2006 21:38:22 GMT
Can I ask that the PEA's are placed at a decent height away from kids? Since the refurbs were introduced on the District with much lower PEA points, I've been pulled down 6 times, and every time it has been a child playing with the handle! I know what your saying but it is a difficult compromise to reach (no pun intended!). We are bound by RVAR on the the issue of handles in RVAR compliant areas. They are buttons now and not handles, Not on the refurb D stocks they aren't!! All handles on there
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Jun 13, 2006 21:47:08 GMT
Only just entering this thread, so forgive me if I've missed it being discussed already (I haven't had time to read the entire thread!). Can I ask that the PEA's are placed at a decent height away from kids? Since the refurbs were introduced on the District with much lower PEA points, I've been pulled down 6 times, and every time it has been a child playing with the handle! The last occurance of this was yesterday on the Ealing-Acton shuttle having to force my way through a pcked car 6 to find the activated handle! If you look at the CIS display, when a Pass Alarm is pulled, not only will it tell you in which car the alarm has been pulled, but it will also tell you which handle has been pulled, numbered from 1 to 5 from the front of the train
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 21:50:24 GMT
which is fine, as long as you remember which is which [especially if two happen to be exactly opposite each other] I've not looked at the refurbs in close detail to be able to see the PEA's
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2006 3:26:24 GMT
Upminster has had a new shed built - something to do with deep cleaning AFAIK. Also there's a wheel lathe being/has been installed too. The grand plan is to take on a more balanced role with Ealing Common depot, such that both depots can be independant of each other - instead of the current set up where Ealing Common does the lion's share of work. AFAIK it is true that Neasden will be the SSR 'super depot', responsible for all the major overhaul stuff on S stock. I would imagine that trains will only go there via transfer paths, as opposed to being scheduled by WTT - especially as the Met will use 8 car trains and the rest 7 cars. I'm sure prjb will be along soon to put us right though... IMO it makes sense to rank the SSL depots and sidings in order of precedence when the new S stock comes on stream: #1: Neasden #2: Upminster #3: Ealing Common #4: Rickmansworth #5: Barking #6: Parsons Green #7: Uxbridge #8: Triangle Has anyone on the S stock design team suggested the establishment of additional 'satellite' depots at places like Barking and Rickmansworth? Given the splattering that A stock experiences when the job is shut down south of Harrow due to engineering works, cutting the trains off from the graffiti removers at Neasden, constructing satellite depots that allow stranded train fleets to be serviced normally without eating up paths doing transfer movements would be very useful IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2006 8:21:18 GMT
seems a logical idea to have 'remote' facilities for handling minor running problems....
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 14, 2006 11:50:58 GMT
Has anyone on the S stock design team suggested the establishment of additional 'satellite' depots at places like Barking and Rickmansworth? Given the splattering that A stock experiences when the job is shut down south of Harrow due to engineering works, cutting the trains off from the graffiti removers at Neasden, constructing satellite depots that allow stranded train fleets to be serviced normally without eating up paths doing transfer movements would be very useful IMO. This is one of the reasons Upminster is being upgraded.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 14, 2006 22:35:33 GMT
I know what your saying but it is a difficult compromise to reach (no pun intended!). We are bound by RVAR on the the issue of handles in RVAR compliant areas. They are buttons now and not handles, Not on the refurb D stocks they aren't!! All handles on there 'D' Stock is not covered by RVAR as it is not new build, but we did try as much as possible to comply in order to show our commitment to the policy.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 14, 2006 22:41:58 GMT
#1: Neasden #2: Upminster #3: Ealing Common #4: Rickmansworth #5: Barking #6: Parsons Green #7: Uxbridge #8: Triangle What about Hammersmith? Seriously though. There will be main depots for heavy overhaul and lifting etc. The other depots will have varying levels of maintenance activities.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2006 23:40:40 GMT
I left Hammersmith out for several reasons: #1: I forgot #2: Given that TfL does not own the land that the depot is on, relying on its presence as a medium/heavy maintenance facility might be a bad idea. #3: If the Hammersmith branch is taken over by Crossrail (as some people have suggested), the depot would be too small for Crossrail trains and would be decommissioned (this is highly unlikely IMO). In the ranking I did, I would put Hammersmith between Ealing Common and Rickmansworth.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2006 6:43:05 GMT
Hammersmith depot may be needed to be modified anyway due to the 7-car S-stock.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 17, 2006 10:23:23 GMT
That is a possibility.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 23, 2006 22:08:06 GMT
Going slightly off topic here (but hey lets face it, I'm not exactly unknown for taking threads west!) for a minute. What are the main features you would like to see on future rolling stock?
Obviously for the staff on here it will be different from what customers want. There's no need to go into huge detail, unless you want to of course, just a few general 'it would be nice to see'.
The reason I ask is that as we began consultation with the Trade Union it became obvious that there were some things that they wanted that we hadn't thought of. Conversely there were things we had thought of that they hadn't. So I thought it might prove interesting to do a kind of 'District Dave' gap analysis!
For the staff on here, please bear in mind that the SSR Upgrade also has a dedicated e-mail address that we would love to hear from you on.
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Post by setttt on Jun 23, 2006 22:53:28 GMT
What are the main features you would like to see on future rolling stock? Sprung seats and a sonya-free quiet coach please.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 23, 2006 22:55:05 GMT
off the top of my head: comfy seats. trains that are clean - and so trains that are easy to clean and keep clean. clear destination displays quality PA speakers that are loud and clear. Announcements that are too quiet or unclear are worse than no announcements. passenger alarms with a unique identity which is reported to the t/op (also it should be printed on the alarm itself as a backup to (a) the T/op's memory, (b) the system not working correctly. so that if I need help they can get to me quickly and directly. If it is not me that needs help then I am not delayed longer than needed. The ability to talk to the driver is good also. There should also be a way for any other member of staff who happens to be travelling on the train to be notified of an alarm as they may be able to help quicker. Perhaps a signal could be broadcast inside the train which is received by a pager type unit carried by staff? smoke alarms that detect cigarete smoke and make a noise alerting the whole carriage to the smokers (peer pressure to stop) and to the T/op to make an anouncemnet/kick the poeple off the train/stop the train as apropriate clear indicators (internally and externally) of which line the train is running on. If the idea is that they can be swapped between lines at a moments notice, then a dot matrix display might be best. If swapping is less frquent then a large sign changeable in the depot with a broad line colour stripe and bold line name. In the latter case, line-specific strip maps rather than a one-for-all would be better than a one-map-fits all design. lots of grab rails in locations convenient for people of all heights. wide doorways. The speaker that plays the door closing alarm should be located centrally above the door, not at ear-level for a person standing at the side of the door (like on the 92stock) - it is not pleasant getting this alarm in you lughole at every station between Oxford Circus and South Woodford! Perch seating as on 73ts - this can be very useful if you are wearing a rucksack.
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Post by Christopher J on Jun 23, 2006 22:58:05 GMT
What are the main features you would like to see on future rolling stock? Locomotive hauled with a buffet coach.
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Post by CSLR on Jun 23, 2006 23:05:47 GMT
What are the main features you would like to see on future rolling stock? Wheels
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 23, 2006 23:20:08 GMT
So you don't think LU are ready for magnetic levitation yet then CSLR?
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Post by mandgc on Jun 24, 2006 0:41:05 GMT
"Door Closing Alarm in your lughole from Ox Circ. to S. Woodford"
So you are one of the people we were constantly asking to "Pass Down The Car, PLEASE" Don't tell me that after Liverpool st. and Stratford you weren't able to move further into the car ?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 24, 2006 8:09:53 GMT
Some people did more further down inside the car as required (there was a suprising (for me) lack of people leaving or joining the carriage I was in (abotu the second iirc) at Liverpool Street, there were about half the number of standees after Stratford) but it was never required of me - i.e. I was not blocking anyone as although it was standing room only it wasn't packed. I do move when needed, but as I was able to lean against the glass partition it was easier for me to stand there than try and hold onto one of the poles (I'm too short to use the overhead ones). I could have got a seat at Snaresbrook, but I let someone else have it as I was only going as far as Woodford, there was spare seats after S. Woodford.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2006 10:13:09 GMT
Well I would like to see plug-doors. According to Q8 people are less keen on wrestling with them. Though with the extremely limited space on the tube stocks, I'm not sure if this is feasible.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 30, 2006 11:03:45 GMT
I think that the main reason LU don't currently have plug doors is not a space issue, but that they take longer to open and close than sliding doors.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2006 11:07:08 GMT
Oh, but they also look nicer, and can't they be built to move faster?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 30, 2006 14:37:57 GMT
They might look nice, but they wouldn't be practical on LUL. Apart from the fact that they take longer to open & close, how would the train fit into a tunnel section if they got stuck open, for example (ie, a defect whereby a member staff travelling etc etc).
I also don't imagine they'd stand up to the same 'door holding abuse' that currently goes on.
With the present system, there is a way of closing the doors manually even when there is a total failure of the door system. Infact, we can even open the doors manually with a total failure of the current door system - how would we get plug type doors open manually under a total failure?
(yes, I know the method i'm referring to [but not revealing publically] has been officially withdrawn for health & safety reasons, but any train op worth his salt would still do it if really neccessary - so it's still a valid point, IMHO).
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