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Post by tube10 on Dec 27, 2006 19:47:24 GMT
What will be the newest underground train stock when they come on stream and what are the features like unlike any other underground trains before?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2006 10:13:16 GMT
Reading many of the existing threads on the 2009 stock, and S-Stock (oops, I've given away the answer now) in the "New & Future Trains" part of the forum should answer your questions!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 20:56:40 GMT
Picc trains will be named "12 Stock" even though they haven't been designed yet. They will run in manual for two years and ATO will be introduced gradually from Cockfosters in three or four stages to Heathrow. The plan is for 96 trains, the first lot a batch of seventeen, then one per week. As a train arrives by road (!) one of the 73's will be removed. Instructors will be placed in their own roster so that the training can proceed smoothly and on time. I understand quite a lot of I/O positions will be created to facilitate this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 21:03:03 GMT
I wonder if Tube Lines will have the guts to attempt a walkthrough design on the 2012TS - LU chickened out when they dumped the Space Train concept and Metronet didn't seem too willing to entertain the design for the 2009TS.
A walkthrough design would be especially nice as it would allow the door vestibules to be increased in size to match the increased floor space created by the walkthrough areas - perfect for storing luggage.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 21:09:49 GMT
It was talked about once upon a time but I don't think the specs have been issed even to those who may tender. Probably end up with a supersized bean can with 12 volt motors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 21:56:58 GMT
I agree with The OneKEA, it would be a good opportunity to introduce a walkthrough design on tube profile trains.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 22:04:09 GMT
It was talked about once upon a time but I don't think the specs have been issed even to those who may tender. Probably end up with a supersized bean can with 12 volt motors. ;D ;D ;D I'm just wondering how the train will cope with the South Ken bends. Nice concertinas there...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 11:31:17 GMT
By bending, perhaps?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 8, 2007 13:40:13 GMT
They will run in manual for two years and ATO will be introduced gradually from Cockfosters in three or four stages to Heathrow. This type of detail has not yet been decided upon yet, there are various (without going into detail) possibilities that the upgrade team are currently looking into. As a train arrives by road (!) one of the 73's will be removed. Again, this type of detail is still to be decided.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 8, 2007 13:41:17 GMT
I wonder if Tube Lines will have the guts to attempt a walkthrough design on the 2012TS Design work aside, I doubt you will be seeing a walk through design for the new Picc stock.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 8, 2007 13:48:20 GMT
With the advent of in-cab platform monitoring, is the length of the train possible to increase beyond (just slightly) the platform length? I hear on the picc its quite limited in some cases.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 8, 2007 14:00:18 GMT
Yes, very much so. Longer trains equal more customers and more customers equal more financial incentives for the Infraco. This is why middle cabs are not being designed into most new stocks, money talks!
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Apr 8, 2007 15:51:35 GMT
May I ask a stoopid question please? Is articulation a possibility for longer car/train lengths? I found some photos of the 1935 Stock that was converted around 1970 and it has its advantages. I have also enjoyed travel on the Paris Metro in articulated trains. With the Picc there is no need for short double-enders now of course.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 8, 2007 16:47:25 GMT
What about having three pairs of walk through cars in a six-car train or a 2+3+2 for a seven car?
eg. DM=T+NDM=T=NDM+T=DM where = is a walk-through connection and + is an uncoupling, non-walk through connection. Would this allow the necessary articulation?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 22:07:40 GMT
What about having three pairs of walk through cars in a six-car train or a 2+3+2 for a seven car? eg. DM=T+NDM=T=NDM+T=DM where = is a walk-through connection and + is an uncoupling, non-walk through connection. Would this allow the necessary articulation? I think people are confusing articulation, with walkthrough corridors again. Articulation is where the car ends share a bogie. Walkthrough corridors can be found on non-articulating and articulating trains.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Apr 8, 2007 22:20:05 GMT
You can indeed have articulated cars with or without walkthrough facilities. You can also have walkthrough with non-articulation, by means of telescopic and flexible connections. Articulation can reduce overall length by sharing bogies and provide for closer inter-car contact and connections as in modern tramways, but sharing a bogie has implications in the event of a failure. As I said it has been tried out on the LU. It has of course never been implemented in subsequent orders!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 22:33:45 GMT
Yeah, they chopped the end off of a 38ts.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Apr 8, 2007 22:57:50 GMT
Two 1935 Tube Stock DMs, withdrawn 1966 and converted in Acton Works around 1970, then scrapped 1975? Tubeprune is the expert here! I shall see what my issues of UNDERGROUND say, as I found some pix in there the other day.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 3:42:37 GMT
Actually Chris M's idea has been applied in Kuala Lumpur. There is this LRT system called STAR (Sistem Transit Aliran Ringan) and during off peak it runs four-car trains, but during the peaks it operates six-car trains. The two variants are shown below. The trains consist of two car units. It works like C stock, except that the centre unit has no cab. Off peak, the centre unit is removed. Key - is articulation walk-through joint + non walk-through non articulated joint = car 4 car =-=+=-= 6 car =-=+=-=+=-= The pic below shows what they look like
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Post by abe on Apr 10, 2007 8:04:51 GMT
Rather closer to home, Chris M's idea is used on the DLR.
When the 2009 TS was shown at Euston (or rather, the special cut-down car!), I asked about walk-through connections and was told that they couldn't be used on the tube unless air-conditioning was provided, as the end doors help pull in 'fresh' air from the tunnels. This wouldn't happen if walk-through connections were provided, and since AC is unlikely to appear in the deep-level tubes they won't be provided. Can anyone confirm/deny this?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 12:37:26 GMT
Oh dear, i forgot about the DLR. However, is there no forced air ventilation on the new tube stocks? Is that not enough? How about opening the all M, J and car-end doors at and letting the air blast through?
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Post by prjb on Apr 18, 2007 23:15:36 GMT
Rather closer to home, Chris M's idea is used on the DLR. When the 2009 TS was shown at Euston (or rather, the special cut-down car!), I asked about walk-through connections and was told that they couldn't be used on the tube unless air-conditioning was provided, as the end doors help pull in 'fresh' air from the tunnels. This wouldn't happen if walk-through connections were provided, and since AC is unlikely to appear in the deep-level tubes they won't be provided. Can anyone confirm/deny this? I can tell you 100% that the reason why a walk through solution was not utilised on the 09ts was not because of air flow considerations. The structural requirements of a tube design would dictate that a through gangway would be roughly the width of the current connecting doors. Having such a narrow throughway would not be worth implementing, so we went with a conventional design. A/C will not be appearing on deep level tubes, but there is an ongoing project to introduce tunnel cooling. The 09ts has forced air ventilation which should prove extremely effective, particularly as the vents have been designed in order to create a circular flow around both the standing and sitting passengers.
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Post by Colin on Apr 19, 2007 0:51:00 GMT
A/C will not be appearing on deep level tubes, but there is an ongoing project to introduce tunnel cooling. So the story in the papers the other day about a 14 mile test track in a former Asfordby mine in Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire, is a load of twaddle then? They certainly gave the impression, as only the media do best, that all new tube trains will be air conditioned and will be tested there first. Are they perhaps half right, in that S stocks will be tested there?
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Post by Tubeboy on Apr 19, 2007 1:17:41 GMT
Also the Old Dalby test track is being kept in a worn state to simulate LU track!
When do DD'ers think driverless trains will become the norm on the tube? The technology is there.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 19, 2007 1:45:17 GMT
Not until you can convince HSE/HMRI or whoever it is today and the unions that it is perfectly safe. I suspect that the latter will be the more difficult of the two.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2007 9:15:20 GMT
Also the Old Dalby test track is being kept in a worn state to simulate LU track! When do DD'ers think driverless trains will become the norm on the tube? The technology is there. I can't see it happening on existing lines due to the lack of tunnel walkway. All present driverless systems are new builds, although a few old metro lines, notably Paris Line 1, are due to be converted to driverless operation.
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Post by prjb on Apr 20, 2007 21:35:10 GMT
I'm keeping well out of this one!
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Post by connextrain on Apr 21, 2007 11:23:55 GMT
Actually Chris M's idea has been applied in Kuala Lumpur. There is this LRT system called STAR (Sistem Transit Aliran Ringan) and during off peak it runs four-car trains, but during the peaks it operates six-car trains. The two variants are shown below. The trains consist of two car units. It works like C stock, except that the centre unit has no cab. Off peak, the centre unit is removed. Key - is articulation walk-through joint + non walk-through non articulated joint = car 4 car =-=+=-= 6 car =-=+=-=+=-= The pic below shows what they look like that looks simalar to a millennium class.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 21, 2007 12:40:16 GMT
I should have thought of the DLR, but it was actually the Tyne and Wear Metro that inspired the comment!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2007 17:11:18 GMT
Driverless trains on the tube? Noooooo!
*waves crossed arms above head*
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