Circles to Go

[Ben]

There was a pdf of the Baker Street step free reconstruction on the net somewhere with artists impressions. Not very technical, but possibly to scale. They had a 3d view with the road surface cut out. Might be helpful?

[Chris M]

The only cross-section or similar image of Baker Street I can find is this one (courtesy of London Reconnections), but that unfortunately only goes down as far as SSL level.
London Connections, and See How They Run have nothing about Baker Street station, and I can't even find plans of the station on Google images.

[amershamsi]

It'll cost lots, but my proposal would solve all the problems of conflicts in the Baker Street/Paddington area, plus allow extension of some Met terminators and the Wimblewares to Kings Cross. It's basically the simple grade-seperation of Edgware Road, and then having the Met go under Great Portland Street, and onto a 4-tracked (with braided junction like Camden Town) Circle/Met to Kings Cross, where the inner two terminate.

To save costs, you could use Euston instead of Kings Cross as the end.



Off-peak services could be as follows under a no-circle plan (each bullet point is 6tph):
District:

• Edgware Road-Upminster (can be swapped for Wimbledon-Upminster and a tea cup)
  
• Ealing Broadway-Tower Hill
  
• Richmond-Upminster

Hammersmith, Barking & Wimbledon (needs a better name):

• Hammersmith-Barking
  
• Hammersmith-Aldgate-Wimbledon (can be swapped for T-Cup and Wimbledon-Upminster)
  
• Kings Cross-Wimbledon

Met:

• Amersham/Chesham/Uxbridge-Kings Cross
  
• Watford-Aldgate
  
• Uxbridge-Aldgate

Off-peak services under a keep-the-circle plan, could be as follows:
Circle:

• Aldgate-Aldgate

District:

• Wimbledon-Upminster
  
• Ealing Broadway-Tower Hill
  
• Richmond-Upminster
  
• Wimbleware

Hammersmith & City:

• Hammersmith-Barking
  
• Hammersmith-Kings Cross

Met:

• Amersham/Chesham/Uxbridge-Kings Cross
  
• Watford-Aldgate
  
• Uxbridge-Aldgate

Another, simpler, idea is to have the Bishop's Road tracks use the north island at Edgware Road and Praed Street the south island, and then make a new island at Baker Street for the Praed Street tracks. Completely segregate the H&C and Wimbleware/T-Cup.

[Deleted]

Once you've reached King's Cross, why not terminate them at Moorgate?

[DrOne]

Those are some interesting plans but I think all of the proposals to 'fix' the junctions are really not dealing with the issue in the best way. I know most of the problems arise at the junctions but even (expensive) grade separation and new signalling will only give an extra 4-6tph max. The bullet would need to be bitten at another point down the line.

I think the District branches have long been "too successful" and now need more capacity than the "Circle" can reliably cope with. When this happened on the Met (albeit in a different construction era), the solution was to construct a new line for stations between Stanmore and Baker St, and onwards. When this happened on the GE lines the solution was to build a new line taking the Loughton and Hainault branches to Liverpool St and connecting the Central.

The equivalent today would be to build a new line to take over the Wimbledon branch (or the EB & Richmond branches), going through Victoria and onwards north/east... to Shenfield. All that is needed to get it built are an airport and financial district at each end. Maybe a (less desirable but cheaper option would be to join the Wimbledon branch to the Charing X branch of the Northern. Now that's what I call a Wimbleware!

[Deleted]

I might add this to my disertation, I am visting london on 27/28 january, and i will be carrying out a survey on passenger numbers at Edgware road, Paddington etc.

[amershamsi]

Jan 16, 2009 6:52:54 GMT @sweek said:

Once you've reached King's Cross, why not terminate them at Moorgate?

Because it would involve 6 tracking to Farringdon - I've 4 tracked to Kings Cross. You could do it as phase 2.

Jan 16, 2009 9:54:53 GMT DrOne said:

Those are some interesting plans but I think all of the proposals to 'fix' the junctions are really not dealing with the issue in the best way. I know most of the problems arise at the junctions but even (expensive) grade separation and new signalling will only give an extra 4-6tph max. The bullet would need to be bitten at another point down the line.

4-tracking gives the ability to run twice as many trains as long as it lasts (and depending on terminus arrangements). TBH, all that's needed is a few tph more at Edgware Road.

I think the District branches have long been "too successful" and now need more capacity than the "Circle" can reliably cope with. When this happened on the Met (albeit in a different construction era), the solution was to construct a new line for stations between Stanmore and Baker St, and onwards. When this happened on the GE lines the solution was to build a new line taking the Loughton and Hainault branches to Liverpool St and connecting the Central.

The equivalent today would be to build a new line to take over the Wimbledon branch (or the EB & Richmond branches), going through Victoria and onwards north/east... to Shenfield. All that is needed to get it built are an airport and financial district at each end. Maybe a (less desirable but cheaper option would be to join the Wimbledon branch to the Charing X branch of the Northern. Now that's what I call a Wimbleware!

Chelney, wih a small alignment change to serve Stratford and Shenfield basically.

Or you can do 'line D' and end the District at Hammersmith, with a cross platform interchange with line D (reroute the Piccadilly briefly), and have GE Chingford/Enfield Town (or branch of your choice) - Liverpool Street - Bank/Cannon Street - Blackfriars/Ludgate - Temple/Aldwych - Charing Cross - Victoria - (maybe some other stops, eg Sloane Square and x-platform with Chelney) - Earl's Court (x-platform with Piccadilly) - Hammersmith (x-platform with District terminating) and then Uxbridge, Ealing and Richmond via the slows.

[astock5000]

Jan 14, 2009 15:09:05 GMT @aspect said:

The only way I can see of keeping a tea cup with no additional stock or paths is ...

Run the tea cup as planned Hammersmith - Circle - Edgware Road and reverse. With Wimbledon - Edgware Road - Plaistow - Barking.

and effectively abandon the H&C all together.

It would need Barking and Edgware Road operators trained Triangle - Wimbledon and District operators Edgware Road - Aldgate East via Kings Cross. But that would add flexibility anyway !

The Wimbledon C stocks run every 10 mins and that would allow a 15min extra Hammersmith - Edgware Road shuttle to provide the desired increase on that branch.

It would provide through running from all locations and doesn't overload Edgware Road's reversing capacity !

I think your idea is better than the current plan, but I don't think T-cup is nessacary. Couldn't extra H&C trains run between Hammersmith & Edgware Road, and some Wimblewares terminate at High Street Kensington? And, if you need a way to get Circles back on time after a delay, you could have them wait at Aldgate (or Gloucester Road on the outer rail) for a few minutes. Once all the C and D stock is replaced, you could change the services a lot more than at the moment, if you stopped using the existing line names, and run it as the 'subsurface line'. Of course, you would have to use different names for different services on maps so the passengers are less likely to be confused.

[Ben]

Deffinately so; a new generic stock gives the ability to change services drastically; but they arent by that much which seems self-defeating. Mind you that was all tried before with an all green SSL and O/P stock.

Bob, who some have you have heard of, made the very strong point to me over christmas that the reason the circle doesnt work is because circle line drivers are given too much time for a circuit.

Combining the Circle with the H&C is a somewhat idealistic way of solving two problems; the lack of Circle recovery time, and the need for increased services on the Hammersmith Branch. Without new infrastructure, things will not work as well as could be hoped. Its inevitable that something new will have to be built eventually; why not do it now when the ecconomy gives it a chance?

[mrjrt]

If you'll indulge me, I've taken amershamsi's diagram and had a play...

random.jamie-thompson.co.uk/Northern Circle.gif[/img]

.. Basic concept is to segregate the Met/H&C and the Circle.

By adding terminating bays at KX, both the inner and outer rail can terminate at a station that's likely to appreciate the empty cars more than Aldgate, and in more importantly, the inner rail has somewhere convenient to terminate.

Junctions become grade separated, platforms rebuilt to ease interchange, etc.

[astock5000]

Two questions about your idea - what services wouldn't stop at Great Portland Street, and Barbican, and what is that line turning off the Circle between Moorgate and Liverpool Street?

[mrjrt]

Jan 18, 2009 18:36:48 GMT astock5000 said:

Two questions about your idea - what services wouldn't stop at Great Portland Street, and Barbican, and what is that line turning off the Circle between Moorgate and Liverpool Street?

The concept is that the H&C would run from Hammersmith (or further afield...but that's another story) all-stations to Baker St., and then both it and the Met skipping as many as possible before the H&C turns off to take over the line to Enfield via Bethnal Green (though tunnelled as much as required until it gets there as the whole point is to relieve the Liverpool St. throat), with the Met running out to Barking, etc.

...but the "fast" services would definitely need to serve KX & Farringdon, for the interchanges if nothing else. The difficulty I have is working out where the line of being reasonable lies between running faster but making people cross over to a more frequent Circle service, vs. serving more of the major stations. Thinking about it, I suppose having passengers take a Circle at Euston a single stop to KX to optionally change onto a fast train to L.S. isn't so bad if they want to shave their times. It'd divide up the loads nicely too. The same goes for the other major interchanges...there's just so many of them...so which do you skip?

...as you may have deduced form above, the line between Moorgate and Liverpool St. is the line to take the H&C off the Circle and out to Enfield. The inspiration came from the fact that Liverpool St used to have 4 Metropolitan platforms, the two through lines in the middle, the south bay, and a long-gone northern through platform into the main station (that apparently is a staff canteen now). I believe the through line was removed when the line was extended to Aldgate. I think the idea is sound in concept though, and sending the H&C out that way would free up platforms for other outer-surburban services.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2009 1:13:19 GMT mrjrt said:

If you'll indulge me, I've taken amershamsi's diagram and had a play...


.. Basic concept is to segregate the Met/H&C and the Circle.

By adding terminating bays at KX, both the inner and outer rail can terminate at a station that's likely to appreciate the empty cars more than Aldgate, and in more importantly, the inner rail has somewhere convenient to terminate.

Junctions become grade separated, platforms rebuilt to ease interchange, etc.

I think you need another crossover at Edgware Rd if trains to Praed St and beyond are to use the "slow lines"...

[astock5000]

There seems to be enough crossovers to the west of Edgware Road. I don't think another one would be needed.

[Ben]

Theres got to be a balance between flexibility and cost though, whatever happens. Thats why I tried to keep new structures down in my diagram. I think Tubeprune made a point ages ago when someone else mentioned quadding the circle, saying something akin to 'if the money were available to do it, its questionable whether it would even be best spent on transport, let alone the circle'.

(If I just made that up though, my sincerest apologies!)

[Deleted]

What about remodelling South Kensington as a terminus for the Circle Line? Two outer platforms could be the through lines and an island in the middle could give two platforms for reversing. It is the only station I can think of with some extra space that is 'outside'.

[Deleted]

What would you say about following:



Completely segregated Circle (with vastly increased frequency and terminating/reversing stub at Moorgate) with shorter lines for all other destinations. To improve interchanges where possible two stations are used (Aldgate + Tower Hill, South Kensington + Gloucester Road, Paddington + Edgware Road).
It cannot be cheap (two tunnel enlargements + two new platforms) - but it would solve all current problems with interlocked line problems.

And being evil - it can be much cheaper (at the expense of passenger's convenience ):

[Ben]

It'd have to have a greater frequency then 30tph, as the number of people changing would cause crowd problems otherwise. The circle surely can deal with some intermingeling; its just the fact that a train can't be dumped and over taken on route that has the knock on effect?

[mrfs42]

Have you also thought about the depot reconfigurations that would be necessary? Where would you stable the Circle stock?

[Deleted]

Feb 7, 2009 22:02:45 GMT Ben said:

It'd have to have a greater frequency then 30tph, as the number of people changing would cause crowd problems otherwise.

I doubt that. It is intentional that in my plan two of the worst crowding spots have 2 interchange stations - to split the number of people changing.
Plus in the areas where tunnels will have to be enlarged, I think grade-separated junctions can be built - which could lead to cross-platform interchange at Edgware Road and Tower Hill.

Feb 7, 2009 22:02:45 GMT Ben said:

The circle surely can deal with some intermingeling; its just the fact that a train can't be dumped and over taken on route that has the knock on effect?

I think that system of 4 lines using same two circular tracks becomes unmanageable even after minor problems (sick passenger delays District train that then delays Circle train that in turn causes delay for Met train which results in severe overcrowding on H&C train ahead which causes loading/unloading delays at Aldgate East delaying yet another District train which misses its window at Minories junction thus delaying yet another Circle train (I can go on with this for hours ;D )).

Feb 8, 2009 0:27:37 GMT mrfs42 said:

Have you also thought about the depot reconfigurations that would be necessary? Where would you stable the Circle stock?

No depot reconfigurations necessary at all! I'm not suggesting to physically disconnect Circle line, so its trains can be stabled whenever practical (Hammersmith or Neasden, etc).

[sarah607]

I think its a good idea by getting rid of the circle line because it makes problems for the district line.

[Deleted]

i know there was a proposal to extending the wimbledon - edgware road service through to barking.

has anyone got a map or route diagram to show this?

[Deleted]

Hmm... someone will know the answer to this. Are there more passengers carried between Earl's Court and High Street or Gloucester Road and High Street?

I think I know the answer (Circle trains).

If there is any notion of cutting the Wimblewares back to High St, would it be possible/advisable to run (ex-City) Wimbledon trains into platform 2 at Gloucester Road to allow for cross-platform interchange? If this would need a new cross-over, how big a problem is that?

[astock5000]

It is possible to send WB Districts through Gloucester Road platform 2:
districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=district&action=display&thread=9826

[21146]

Depicting the combined Circle/H&C on the map should be interesting. Ditto the destination blind protocol on trains. If these were automated LEDs or dot matrix it might be possible to combine their operation with the DVA in-car messages. As it is, being manually wound, the driver may have to change this three or four times per trip (and the rear one will never be changed).

#1 leave Hammersmith showing "Liverpool Street" #2 At Edgware Road change to "Circle Line" #3 At Victoria change to "Edgware Road" #At Edgware Road change to South Kensington (for return via I.R.)

Is he/she really going to do that? I can visualise trains leaving Hammersmith showing "Edgware Road", the fact that they'll be going via Kings Cross, Aldgate, Victoria and Notting Hill Gate before getting there (for the second time) won't matter!

[Deleted]

And since they put in those ineffective new Peltier cab air-con units, it's dead easy to take the skin off your knuckles changing the blind!

[astock5000]

Mar 4, 2009 10:51:48 GMT @21146 said:

#1 leave Hammersmith showing "Liverpool Street" #2 At Edgware Road change to "Circle Line" #3 At Victoria change to "Edgware Road" #At Edgware Road change to South Kensington (for return via I.R.)

Is he/she really going to do that? I can visualise trains leaving Hammersmith showing "Edgware Road", the fact that they'll be going via Kings Cross, Aldgate, Victoria and Notting Hill Gate before getting there (for the second time) won't matter!

What would be the problem of showing 'Circle line' when leaving Hammersmith? As the service will still be called the Circle line, it might be less confusing than Liverpool Street.

[Deleted]

Mar 4, 2009 19:48:04 GMT astock5000 said:

What would be the problem of showing 'Circle line' when leaving Hammersmith? As the service will still be called the Circle line, it might be less confusing than Liverpool Street.

The Early morning trains which come out of Hammersmith depot and Barking sidings show Circle Line from Hammersmith and Barking now, so I see no problem here.

[21146]

Mar 4, 2009 20:02:18 GMT @jim said:

Mar 4, 2009 19:48:04 GMT astock5000 said:

What would be the problem of showing 'Circle line' when leaving Hammersmith? As the service will still be called the Circle line, it might be less confusing than Liverpool Street.

The Early morning trains which come out of Hammersmith depot and Barking sidings show Circle Line from Hammersmith and Barking now, so I see no problem here.

You're right and this is confusing too. The first time I saw this at Bow Road I had to check the middle set number to ensure which way it was going at Aldgate East, and even then I rechecked the platform repeater there.

[astock5000]

But it isn't confusing when its coming from Hammersmith, as trains from Hammersmith can only go one way round the Circle.