Circles to Go

[metman]

A stock can't run to Barking because of Gauging issues, and there would need to be alot of modifications at Tower Hill!!!
On a personal note I like the idea of reversing every other Wimbleware at HSK. It lightens the load at Edgware Road!

Perhaps if there were 4 tracks between Edgware Road and Pread St junction (sadly too expensive) there wouldn't be all these problems!!!

[Oracle]

A stock can't run to Barking

Since the photo that I published in UNDERGROUND was taken in the late 1970s of A stock in Barking Sidings for training purposes, have there been works to restrict running to Barking?

[ruislip]

Jul 1, 2008 17:06:11 GMT metman said:

On a personal note I like the idea of reversing every other Wimbleware at HSK. It lightens the load at Edgware Road!

How would that affect the District's "shuttle" between Olympia and HSK?

[ruislip]

Jul 1, 2008 16:46:54 GMT Alight said:

As I have mentioned on another thread, this seems best and least confusing (to travellers) method in my opinion (without need of a tea cup service)

SEE HERE

Services however are tricky.

6 tph Ealing Broadway - Upminster (D78)
6 tph Richmond - Upminster (D78)
6 tph Wimbledon - Upminster (D78)
6+* tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road (C)
6+* tph Tower Hill – Edgware Road (C)
4 tph Kensington (Olympia) - High Street Kensington (D78)

Would there still be 6tph Uxbridge-Aldgate/Barking? What about frequencies for H&C trains?

[Alight]

Jul 1, 2008 17:06:11 GMT metman said:

A stock can't run to Barking because of Gauging issues, and there would need to be alot of modifications at Tower Hill!!!
On a personal note I like the idea of reversing every other Wimbleware at HSK. It lightens the load at Edgware Road!

Hey, Havn't you seen the proposals to switch the H&C with Met when it comes to Barking - hence the reason why I showed the met to Barking. If it is a problem, then Tower Hill can be modified - yes with great difficulty but hey extending the Jubilee was difficult!!

Moreover, they wouldn't need to reverse at HSK? They would run along the circle line tracks to Tower Hill hence the C Stock.

[metman]

The Met to Barking scheme has been dropped. The current finacial climate will dictate that no major building work will happen, especially at Tower Hill. The reversing facilities at Tower Hill would be rubbish, even if the middle road could become a through road!

The Met will run as now, the H&C will run as normal. The Circle will be modified as suggested. The Olympia service would run as normal every 15 minutes using 2 trains. The Wimbleware trains would rotate HSK and Edgware Rd. The Olympia service would use platform 4 and the Wimbledon trains would use platform 3.

[Alight]

O okay I hadn't noticed!

[c5]

Jul 1, 2008 18:36:14 GMT ruislip said:

Jul 1, 2008 16:46:54 GMT Alight said:

As I have mentioned on another thread, this seems best and least confusing (to travellers) method in my opinion (without need of a tea cup service)

SEE HERE

Services however are tricky.

6 tph Ealing Broadway - Upminster (D78)
6 tph Richmond - Upminster (D78)
6 tph Wimbledon - Upminster (D78)
6+* tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road (C)
6+* tph Tower Hill – Edgware Road (C)
4 tph Kensington (Olympia) - High Street Kensington (D78)

Would there still be 6tph Uxbridge-Aldgate/Barking? What about frequencies for H&C trains?

The current advertised service on the H&C and Circle is a train every 8.5 mins. The service frequency on the Hammersmith branch does need to be increased though. The Hammersmith and Circle line is the best way of doing it. The only pain would be changing trains at Edgware Road. At least there might be more trains then...

Jul 1, 2008 16:46:54 GMT Alight said:

As I have mentioned on another thread, this seems best and least confusing (to travellers) method in my opinion (without need of a tea cup service)

SEE HERE

Services however are tricky.

6 tph Ealing Broadway - Upminster (D78)
6 tph Richmond - Upminster (D78)
6 tph Wimbledon - Upminster (D78)
6+* tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road (C)
6+* tph Tower Hill – Edgware Road (C)
4 tph Kensington (Olympia) - High Street Kensington (D78)

* more trains due to more C stock avalible.

The method will also increase Upminster services by an extra 6 trains from Ealing Broadway to make space for terminating C stocks at Tower Hill from Edgware Road.

A further alternative (if shortage of A stock) is to terminate Metropolitan at Tower Hill (modification needed of course) and then H&C can run to Barking instead.

Diagram edited to a link because size of image was far bigger than forum limits (and was distorting page). Reminder that images are 800x500pxl max

Trouble there is that on some shutdowns the D stocks would end up at the east end! That's why they have the off peak Ealings and peak Wimbledons going round at Tower Hill.

And what about trains going from Tower Hill to Aldgate?

And modifications for any stock to reverse at Tower Hill W->E would require a lot of re-signalling...

Jul 1, 2008 18:38:07 GMT Alight said:

Hey, Havn't you seen the proposals to switch the H&C with Met when it comes to Barking - hence the reason why I showed the met to Barking. If it is a problem, then Tower Hill can be modified - yes with great difficulty but hey extending the Jubilee was difficult!!

The Met to Barking thing isn't happening.

[21146]

A Stock ran to Barking Sidings in the 1970s to stock-train Barking (Met) crews for the ELL. What's really changed in the meantime? The SSL resignalling/train replacement programmes allow a once in 40-50 years chance to recast services and possibly provide new links. Is this chance going to be seized by LU or are we just continuing with the 1941 timetable pattern? (Minus the District to Hounslow and north side of Circle.)

[Alight]

Bananaman,

I hope you understand that on of the key aims of my route was to actually prove the point that the circle line is only needed in two points: Aldgate - Tower Hill; Gloucester Road-HSK.

So I therefore tried to think of a way of cutting out the circle by letting the met extend to Tower Hill (just one stop and yes I know there are going to be difficulties but I am not fully experienced at signals) and district can run along circle line tracks at other end or better stiill just make customers change at Earls Court!

I had absolutely no idea they had abandoned the idea of the Met to Barking to be honest as Dave's SSL upgrade section hasn't been updated for a while.

Furthermore I do apologise for the large image - I tried to edit it but photo bucket kept on crashing.

Alex (Dont worry this wasn't a moany post at all!)

[Phil]

Jul 2, 2008 13:24:07 GMT Alight said:

Furthermore I do apologise for the large image - I tried to edit it but photo bucket kept on crashing.

You're by no means the first! The only way I've found to get images the right size is to do it first on your PC with PicManager/Photoshop or whatever you use, then upload the finished (small) image as well as the original if needed!! Photobucket's tools DO tend to be a bit temperamental!

[astock5000]

Jul 1, 2008 19:07:08 GMT metman said:

The Olympia service would use platform 4 and the Wimbledon trains would use platform 3.

But you won't be able to run across the platform onto the shuttle when you have got the wrong train!
Also, why not have Edgware Road to Wimbledon as a separate line, instead of it being part of the District? The same thing happened with the Circle and H&C, that used to be part of the Met.

[Alight]

Back to reality - does anyone know what the name of the whole "T-cup" service will be?

And also, just as a thought, (what have you told me about thinking ), surely the H&C could run an unchanged route - Hammersmith to Barking - and the metropolitan will extend from Aldgate all the way around to Edgware Road, because after all the S Stock should make this possible? I think this would be less confusing as it would mean the H&C doesn't pass through Edgware Road twice (once from Hammersmith and 2nd through termination).

*Phil: absolutely photobucket tried to be all cool with their latest editing features but don't seem to be very reliable at all!*

[Chris M]

Would the longer Met trains fit into the platforms between Notting Hill Gate and Edgware Road?

Regarding the name of the t-cup service, I've seen "Hammersmith and Circle" suggested somewhere.

[Ben]

The stations are ony being lengthened to 7 cars, if atall. With walkthrough gangways I dont see why extreme SDO can't be inplemented though...

[Colin]

Jul 2, 2008 16:38:39 GMT Alight said:

Back to reality - does anyone know what the name of the whole "T-cup" service will be?

I have seen a provisional in car diagram - it was titled "Circle line".

I kid you not - though whether it's been changed since I do not know.

[Alight]

Jul 2, 2008 17:05:26 GMT Chris M said:

Regarding the name of the t-cup service, I've seen "Hammersmith and Circle" suggested somewhere.

Or "Circle and Hammersmith" as the Northern Line announcer calls it - as if the lines are all as one.

And Colin, wasn't it going to be called the Spiral route at some point?

[Deleted]

I have read that Frank Pick wanted to end the Circle service in the 1930s but had legal advice that legislation authorising completion of the Circle required that the service be run.

Has there been a change in the legislation?

[Colin]

Jul 3, 2008 10:59:37 GMT Alight said:

And Colin, wasn't it going to be called the Spiral route at some point?

First I've heard of that - my reply was based an actual line car diagram produced for Bombardier so that they would know what sort of space was required inside the S stock.

Jul 3, 2008 11:50:42 GMT @sydneynick said:

Has there been a change in the legislation?

Rather than a change in legislation, I've always thought that rail companies couldn't remove a route without proving it is justified or providing some form of alternative (ie, permanent rail replacement bus service)

[Deleted]

Although each line was authorised by its own Act, so in theory they could be different, I think the general pattern was to require a service to all stations provided for by the Act.

However, that didn't have to be a through service, so I don't expect forcing passengers to change at Edgware Road for stations to/from South Ken will have any legal implications.

[astock5000]

Jul 3, 2008 0:25:41 GMT Colin said:

Jul 2, 2008 16:38:39 GMT Alight said:

Back to reality - does anyone know what the name of the whole "T-cup" service will be?

I have seen a provisional in car diagram - it was titled "Circle line".

I kid you not - though whether it's been changed since I do not know.

I think that they will either call it Circle or Hammersmith & Circle, but that would be a problem as there would be two H&Cs!

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2008 11:50:42 GMT @sydneynick said:

I have read that Frank Pick wanted to end the Circle service in the 1930s but had legal advice that legislation authorising completion of the Circle required that the service be run.
Has there been a change in the legislation?

According to "A History of London Transport" by Barker & Robbins (note 5 to Chapter 16, Vol II), there was a requirement to run a continuous Circle service in S89 of the Metropolitan and District Railways (City lines and Extensions) Act of 1879, which was removed by S 105 of the London passenger Transport Act 1934 .

AIUI this repeal was in preparation for a proposed 'loop the loop' service from Hammersmith (H&C) to Barking via Victoria (and King's Cross twice), in the early days of the LPTB, which never came about.

But alternatively, when the question was asked in the RCTS query section (in the year 2000):

A00.05 London's Inner Circle Agreements
A lengthy reply has been received from Bill Batteson, who has extracted details from most railway related parliamentary acts. He has provided the following condensed version for publication: "It seems that the Legislation of the 1870s which applied to the introduction of the Inner Circle services was at some time been misinterpreted and subsequently repeated in various later books and articles. There WAS an agreement between the two railway companies involved which had to be confirmed by the 1872 act, when joint working of the incomplete Inner Circle was introduced. This dealt with matters such as the mileage to be operated by each company's trains and the seating capacity of the trains. No mention was made of a minimum number of trains. This agreement was also incorporated into the later act when the Circle was completed. On the formation of the LPTB in 1933, the Metropolitan and Metropolitan & District Railways were both taken over so the agreement lapsed. Thus the recent suspension of traffic was not infringement of the agreement (BB).

So, either way a continuous Circle service isn't legally required. What would require approval is any (permanent total) withdrawal of passenger services over any section of line, which (AIUI) is not being suggested.

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2008 10:59:37 GMT Alight said:

Jul 2, 2008 17:05:26 GMT Chris M said:

Regarding the name of the t-cup service, I've seen "Hammersmith and Circle" suggested somewhere.

Or "Circle and Hammersmith" as the Northern Line announcer calls it - as if the lines are all as one.

Circle & Hammersmith line was the official line name before re merger with the Met line.

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2008 20:35:08 GMT astock5000 said:

Jul 3, 2008 0:25:41 GMT Colin said:

I have seen a provisional in car diagram - it was titled "Circle line".

I kid you not - though whether it's been changed since I do not know.

I think that they will either call it Circle or Hammersmith & Circle, but that would be a problem as there would be two H&Cs!

Circle & Hammersmith I would guess, makes sense anyway. C&H

[mrfs42]

The notice about the introduction of C stock in 1970 uses the title 'Hammersmith and Circle' - guess who's doing some cataloguing.

[Deleted]

Jul 4, 2008 19:54:14 GMT mrfs42 said:

The notice about the introduction of C stock in 1970 uses the title 'Hammersmith and Circle' - guess who's doing some cataloguing.

Mrfs, if you check through your working timetable collection you will see that from the early to mid 1990's the Circle/ H&C timetables list the line as the Circle & Hammersmith line.

[mrfs42]

Jul 4, 2008 20:04:53 GMT @jim said:

Jul 4, 2008 19:54:14 GMT mrfs42 said:

The notice about the introduction of C stock in 1970 uses the title 'Hammersmith and Circle' - guess who's doing some cataloguing.

Mrfs, if you check through your working timetable collection you will see that from the early to mid 1990's the Circle/ H&C timetables list the line as the Circle & Hammersmith line.

Yeah - I *knew*; I was just saying that the 'C&H' usage goes back 38 years!

[Deleted]

If they get rid of the Circle they will rue the day. The majority of non-Londoners and a lot of Londoners struggle to work it out now. Adding to the confusion will make it worse. With the inevitable late running etc trains will still have to be turned short and diverted anyway.

I'm sure the powers that be think they know best but it's been tried before.

I'll resurrect this thread in 5 years time to say "i told you so!" ;-)

[metman]

Yes, I agree!

[tubeprune]

Jul 3, 2008 11:50:42 GMT @sydneynick said:

I have read that Frank Pick wanted to end the Circle service in the 1930s but had legal advice that legislation authorising completion of the Circle required that the service be run.

As soon as the LPTB took over the Met. in 1934, they began looking at ways of getting rid of the Circle. The surface lines were to become one system with all electric trains able to go anywhere. I once had a report which described various possible scenarios including Wimbledon to Uxbridge via Aldgate. The idea fell down because:

- crew training would be a nightmare if everyone had to go everywhere;
- if not, reliefs after delays would affect the whole system even more than they do now;
- stock utilisation would be a nightmare to control;
- stock training would be a nightmare and how would you keep in training?

There were some tentative steps. At least one timetable had District Q Stock working on the branch around 1938. I wonder if our WTT guru (calling mrfs42) knows which one. I wonder if there were any yellow perils for it.