Sunday Districts on the Circle in a bygone era

[ruislip]

Why did the District stop providing two Circle trains in each direction on Sundays in the Spring of 1990?

[Deleted]

"The Company Plan" was put in place that separated most of the lines into distinct operating units. The Hammersmith & Circle was put in place and the District on its own.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2008 22:46:14 GMT @rob said:

"The Company Plan" was put in place that separated most of the lines into distinct operating units. The Hammersmith & Circle was put in place and the District on its own.

The Company plan didn't come about until December 1992

[Deleted]

My mistake then.

Why did Districts run the northern side of the circle? (Was it for Route knowledge for those Thursday before a bank holiday diagrams or was it a leftover from CO/P days?)

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2008 23:29:13 GMT @rob said:

My mistake then.

Why did Districts run the northern side of the circle? (Was it for Route knowledge for those Thursday before a bank holiday diagrams or was it a leftover from CO/P days?)

All I know for sure is that it was only Parsons Green crews who done Circles and the trains were numbered in the 100 series. I assume it was just a leftover from CO/CP days as you say.

[towerman]

Back in the day it wasn't just CO/CP stock,I remember seeing R stock and very rarely the odd Q38.

[solidbond]

The Circles run by the District were, Outer Rail 123 and 125, and Inner Rail 114 and 115 IIRC. Since the only reason they ran really was for historical reasons, it was basically decided that when the H&C became its own line, the District would no longer run Circles. I believe that part of the reason was, with the development of the separate business units, there was the anomaly of a Circle Line train, using H&C trains, running on Metropolitan Line tracks with a District Line driver. There was also the fact that us Baker St Met drivers would refuse to run one of the District Circles as they had to be driven by District drivers ;D I remember one Sunday at Baker St, the Station Manager came in to tell me that T204 had been reformed at Edgware Road into T125, and could I take it to Gloucester Road for the District driver to pick it up. I refused on the grounds that it was a District train, and I was a Met driver. After he complained that the train was now in the platform, I pointed out that it wasn't my problem. As he was walking out of the room, I just happend to mention that, if it was still T204 then I couldn't refuse to run it, and it could possibly be reformed on arrival at Gloucester Road ;D I'll leave you to work out what happened next

[21146]

There were also the very occasional special working timetables that had District Line trains running on the north side of the Circle Line well into the 1980s.

www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2740938023/sizes/l/

[happybunny]

Can I ask what are those two box things on a pole just to the right of the train cab area ? Also is that a DMT driving he stopped a bit too far forward

[Deleted]

AIUI the reason for District trains on the Circle on Sundays was to maintain route knowledge amongst District crews.

But these days it seems the greater accountability of separate line fiefdoms has taken precedence over the flexibility there could be if the 'surface lines' were more integrated, in providing different service patterns when sections have to be closed, rather than just chopping large parts of the service.

[Chris M]

I've always thought it odd that both District and H&C crews were not trained on all routes through the HSK-Earl's Court-Gloucester Road junction.

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2008 15:50:42 GMT @happybunny said:

Also is that a DMT driving

I think drivers' uniform included a white shirt in those days.

[21146]

I think it's actually the light blue shirt that went with the grey uniform c1973-1986

[21146]

Aug 7, 2008 15:50:42 GMT @happybunny said:

Can I ask what are those two box things on a pole just to the right of the train cab area ? Also is that a DMT driving he stopped a bit too far forward

Box-like things? First generation b&w OPO monitors I guess. No need for him to align with them as he had a guard on the train and could stop anywhere providing all 6 cars were in..

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2008 19:30:27 GMT @adw said:

Aug 7, 2008 15:50:42 GMT @happybunny said:

Also is that a DMT driving

I think drivers' uniform included a white shirt in those days.

It was light blue with red and blue pinstripes.

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2008 23:26:52 GMT @21146 said:

I think it's actually the light blue shirt that went with the grey uniform c1973-1986

No thats post the grey uniform, we didn't get short sleeve shirts with the grey uniforms. Thats the red and white striped jacket era.

[21146]

correct! the 'roadsweeper' jacket!

[tubeprune]

Circle working was always shared between Met and DR trains, even in steam days. Sometime after 1934, I think, the weekday DR working stopped but the Sundays continued. They also worked DR trains to Aldgate via Edgware Road on Saturdays and Bank Holidays into the 1970s at least. Perhaps mrfs42 can offer dates?

[ruislip]

Aug 8, 2008 7:14:05 GMT tubeprune said:

Circle working was always shared between Met and DR trains, even in steam days. Sometime after 1934, I think, the weekday DR working stopped but the Sundays continued. They also worked DR trains to Aldgate via Edgware Road on Saturdays and Bank Holidays into the 1970s at least. Perhaps mrfs42 can offer dates?

In my Underground Guide collection that covers 1958-72, I am still wishing to find a copy that list these projections.

[roythebus]

IIRC the District stopped working the top Circle Saturday trains sometime in 1972, just after LT had spent a fortune on new R stock blinds with them all on; this was about the time the R stock was reforemd to 7 cars, another waste of money.

There was a memorable Bank holiday when the District ran a Saturday service, the Met ran M-F service, and 2 train 62's arrived at Baker St at the same time, both terminating at Liverpool Street!!

When I get time I'll look through my set working books and try to establish when they actually finished.

They were certainly a relic from earlier times, and I believe the SO trains were for football at Chelsea.

We ran R stock on the Circles too; a favourite used to be for the guard to ask for physical needs relief at Baker Street, which would then stop the job for about 20 mins as no BS crews would work R stock!

I don't remember ever working a Q stock on the Circle, though it must have happened.

[citysig]

Dec 30, 2008 8:41:12 GMT roythebus said:

There was a memorable Bank holiday when the District ran a Saturday service, the Met ran M-F service, and 2 train 62's arrived at Baker St at the same time, both terminating at Liverpool Street!!

Trust me, if you have the "wrong" staff on duty, and the service reformations go a bit pear-shaped, this can happen today, with everyone supposedly working with the same timetable ;D

[mrfs42]

Aug 8, 2008 7:14:05 GMT tubeprune said:

Circle working was always shared between Met and DR trains, even in steam days. Sometime after 1934, I think, the weekday DR working stopped but the Sundays continued. They also worked DR trains to Aldgate via Edgware Road on Saturdays and Bank Holidays into the 1970s at least. Perhaps mrfs42 can offer dates?

My sincere apologies, I've only just noticed this thread.

Yes, I'll have a look for the dates (if I can), as I've got all my pre-1971 District & Piccadilly WTTs and Met. WTTs too with me here in Kent, the post-1971 part has still got to come across the country, apart from recent acquisitions - from which I can quote:

Met No1/2 WTT 235/237 30/11/70, Saturday service summary in No 1 section preamble - from 1215 to 1415 and from 1715 to 1945, certain District Line trains are extended to run to and from Liverpool Street/Aldgate.

I know I've got the companion District WTT, but that is still on the other side of the country.

This is certainly an area that merits further digging when the rest of the WTT library comes over this side of the country - I know that the Met. WTTs were both reissued as 'C' notices and the District WTT that came into force on the same day was 96 - which was also reissued as a printed-but-handwritten 'C' notice for the Mon-Fri service, in landscape rather than portrait format.

[Deleted]

ISTR reading that the District stopped providing an everyday service on the Circle sometime in the 1920s, with the introduction of a District service (over the Met) to Edgware Road, following its reconstruction - but continued to provide some Sunday trains (using any convenient/suitable trains) for crew route knowledge and/or mileage balancing purposes. Until it was decided that everything should be rigidly divided... (unlike the days when the Metropolitan & District were one line on the map)

[tubeprune]

I found it. District Putney Bridge services extended from High St to Edgware Rd on 1st November 1926 and they stopped doing Circles from that date except on Sundays.

[roythebus]

I've recently found my set working books from 1971/72 so will see what's interesting in there re District workings to Aldgate etc.

[mrfs42]

Feb 25, 2009 8:49:07 GMT roythebus said:

I've recently found my set working books from 1971/72 so will see what's interesting in there re District workings to Aldgate etc.

Ooo. Please.

[roythebus]

OK, the districts to Liverpool Street and Aldgate are shown in the 1970 set working book (DR WTT 95), but not shown in the set working book dated February 1972 (DR WTT 96).

They are not shown at all in the DR WTTs as going beyond Edgware Road, presumably that was in the Met/circle WTT!

Scanning through the set workings,

set 62 done Put B 11.59 to Lpool St arr 1231 dep 1235 to Wim; then later 1635 Wim-Aldgate 1721/1732 to Put B;

set 66 Wim 1250 to Lpool St 1331/1335 to wim; later 1705Wim to Aldgate 1751/1802 to Wim;

set 67 PG 1216 to Lpool St 1246/1250 to Wim 1332/1350 to Lpool St 1431/1435 to Wim; later Wim 1650 to aldgate 1737/1748 to Wim.

Set 70 PG 1231 to Lpool st 1301/1305 to Wim 1437; later Wim 1735 to Aldgate 1821/1833 to wim;

Set 71 Wim 1235 to Lpool st 1316/1320 to Wim; later 1750 Wim Aldgate 1836/1848 to Wim;

Set 74 1305 Wim Lpool St 1346/1350 to Wim 1432; later 1605 Wim Aldgate 1651/1703 to Wim 1747/1805 to Aldgate 1851/1903 to wim

Set 75 Wim 1320 to Moorgate 1359/1407 to Wim 1447. Later Wim 1620 to Aldgate 1706/1718 to Wim 1802.

It seems ther extended service was in connection with football at Chelsea or Fulham as ther service seems to disappear while the match is on! Interesting that there only appears to be one train that turns at Moorgate.

Stock was usually CP, but I've worked R and Q stock on those services. There may have been a couple of other workings which I've missed.

Somthing to think about.

Sunday District Circle sets at the time were 114 and 115 inner rail; 123 and 125 outer rail.

[mrfs42]

Thank-you very much! Most kind.

[roythebus]

Another one is set 37, Wim 1720 Aldgate 1806/1818 Wim 1902. This is booked for R stock.

Having found the workings in the WTT, it seems the "early" service ran to Liverpool Street, with one to Moorgate, and the "later" service to Aldgate. 18 trains total, unless I've missed any.

Interesting thing is that set 37 works 1602 Ecmn Depot, Acton Town 1603, Edgware Rd 1626/1636, Wim 1702 then as above, Wim 1910 High St 1928/1941, E Bwy 2001/2006 ety to E cmn Depot.

[PGtrips]

Dec 30, 2008 8:41:12 GMT roythebus said:

IIRC the District stopped working the top Circle Saturday trains sometime in 1972, just after LT had spent a fortune on new R stock blinds with them all on; this was about the time the R stock was reformed to 7 cars, another waste of money.

This, presumably, is what prevented all the football specials continuing, as they would have had to be only 6 cars maximum for the platforms between High St - Baker St. They could presumably be resourced from stock that was only required M-F for 'mainline' DR work and not limited to the 6 car sets for the Wimblewares, of which there would not have been enough.

On that basis, wasn't the ceasing of DR uncoupling Oct 71? There was a very interesting thread on here with lots of pictures of uncoupling portions at PG, but it seems to have disappeared.