Travelling D stock

[Tubeboy]

Is the D stock "cleared "to run between Rayners lane and Uxbridge? Also are they "cleared" to run on the inner circle between Liverpool st and Edgware road? Finally what is the limit on the c stock going Eastwards on the district, is it Dagenham Heathway, something about a bridge having insufficient clearance

[Deleted]

tubeboy said:

Is the D stock "cleared "to run between Rayners lane and Uxbridge? Also are they "cleared" to run on the inner circle between Liverpool st and Edgware road? Finally what is the limit on the c stock going Eastwards on the district, is it Dagenham Heathway, something about a bridge having insufficient clearance

Well, I know the D's can go as far as Rayners - not sure about going beyond that point...

[Deleted]

From Q8 - They can go as far as Barking when in service, but as far as Upminster when empty.

[solidbond]

sturdjos said:

From Q8 - They can go as far as Barking when in service, but as far as Upminster when empty.

C stock are banned east of Barking sidings, due to clearance issues at Becontree and Dagenham Heathway Westbound. This follows a couple of incidents, many years ago, where trains and platforms decided to get a bit too friendly ;D
Despite what you may read elsewhere, I can assure you that these ARE the problem areas, as I know the drivers concerned, and I was also around on the lines at the time of the incidents

[prjb]

I was in a meeting with some engineers recently when this subject came up. 'C' can run to Upminster but under special arrangements, low speed etc.

[Deleted]

prjb said:

'C' can run to Upminster but under special arrangements, low speed etc.

Low speed shouldn't be a problem for most H&C drivers... They could just pretend they're going round the Circle with a District behind getting off for grub at ECT... ;D ;D (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Colin]

The D stock has a speed restriction imposed when going under bridges, Hanger Lane - Rayners Lane.

As for D stock on other parts of the SSR, High St Ken - Edgware road is a sort of They'll fit gauge wise, but can't be in service because of short platforms - and depending on who you listen to, they may or may not fit into the signalling sections at Edgware Road. They'll also fit gauge wise Aldgate East to Liverpool Street (as was found last year when someone took a wrong 'un). Between Liverpool Street and Edgware road - Dunno, depends on gauges I suspect. Same with the Met (they did a railtour on the Met when new, but again, gauging may have changed). Finally three car doubled ended units ran on the ELL for a time (while the A stock was being refurbed).

In a way there's an interesting point here - the S stock is generic for the whole of SSR. PRJB - has anybody given any thought to the current gauging issues when deciding the dimensions of the S stock? I appreciate that things like the D stocks longer car bodies, and the A & C stocks body sway are different issues entirely - but all the same, I hope the powers that be have done their sums right ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Call me simple But I always thought the gauging was the same across the network (and indeed the UK ? )

[Tubeboy]

It would be nice if that was the case joe! Trains have what is termed a kinematic envelope, when travelling, its not just their dimensions, but also the air surrounding them, it sounds trivial , but it is very important. Examples of this are, only one train can use the st mary curve at the one time, and until recently refurbished d stock entering the e/b at kew gardens, with a 20mph speed restiction.

[Deleted]

colin said:

As for D stock on other parts of the SSR, High St Ken - Edgware road is a sort of They'll fit gauge wise, but can't be in service because of short platforms - and depending on who you listen to, they may or may not fit into the signalling sections at Edgware Road.

The signal sections in the platforms at Edgware Road were shrunk in the early 1990s; they are now designed to fit 300ft trains and will not take 360ft trains without causing a frame deadlock.

IIRC it was done because of compromised overlaps; I recall citysig bemoaning the action because of the loss of flexibility.

[agoodcuppa]

The "dynamic envelope" of a vehicle is its physical dimensions plus the amount it can move sideways and vertically when moving.

[Phil]

sturdjos said:

Call me simple But I always thought the gauging was the same across the network (and indeed the UK ? )

If only, Joe!

There is a maximum gauge on NR, but this is bigger than most routes in practice.

However it did not stop British Rail designing the class165 DMUs specifically for the Thames Valley route (now FGW link), which has the largest loading gauge in the land (being ex-broad gauge)!!

As a result, these trains cannot realisticallly be transferred anywhere else (except the Chiltern route)!!!

But in these days of the privatised railway and stock being transferred all across the land modern units will fit all lines.

Again, on LU, stock has always been designed with a specific line in mind, leading to the problems mentioned in earlier posts. SSL stock will have to have all the compromises relevant to all the lines involved.

[Deleted]

Actually, the 165s are much less fat than originally suspected. I read some posts in uk.railway that discussed the loading gauge of a 165 and someone mentioned that if you take the step plates underneath the door thresholds off, route availability increases markedly.

[Deleted]

tubeboy said:

refurbished d stock entering the e/b at kew gardens, with a 20mph speed restiction.

Indeed, this is still in place due to the 'gauging issues'

[Deleted]

theonekea said:

Actually, the 165s are much less fat than originally suspected. I read some posts in uk.railway that discussed the loading gauge of a 165 and someone mentioned that if you take the step plates underneath the door thresholds off, route availability increases markedly.

IIRC from my days at Thames Trains, we had very specific instructions on which platforms we were allowed to use at Bristol TM (at the time we used to run there) due to the very fact that they were too wide for the other platforms!

[Deleted]

The working reference manual on which stock is clear to operate on which sections of line under NORMAL operating conditions, despite being a less than "plain English" document gives D stock clearance to operate over all the expected sections of the District and from Acton Town to Northfields depot. (Not Hanger Lane Junction to Rayners Lane nor High Street to Edgware Road).

C stock is cleared over all of the District except Barking - Upminster (it is however cleared for Dagenham East bay road ....it just can't get there !!). This was recently reinforced by wall notice to staff ... following a points failure at Barking sidings west, when a number of C stock ran to Upney and entered Barking sidings east - a move intended only for D stock.

Special clearance can be obtained to run stock over other sections which is when the likes of "no passing trains, 5 mph under bridges, 5mph through platforms etc ...come into play. This is either for general stock moves or for operating difficulties, such as a driver being offered and accepting a wrong route. (I gather however a D stock must not run through Aldgate inner rail as it will foul the platform - in such an example a wrong direction move would be the only option).

A quick glance seemed to show the 1967 stock as having the greatest general authority to run about the network.

[trainopd78]

prjb said:

I was in a meeting with some engineers recently when this subject came up. 'C' can run to Upminster but under special arrangements, low speed etc.

I recieved an internal E-mail a few weeks ago from the LSM stating that they are prohibited until further notice until various issues were resolved. I'll try to find it when im back at work and PM you a copy.

[Chris W]

prjb said:

'C' can run to Upminster but under special arrangements, low speed etc.

Some years ago I was on a 'C' stock unit that indeed was traveling to Upminster with cattle (as indeed I consider myself, not being LU/railway employed) on-board - I got out at Elm Park I seem to remember....

Was an unusual experience, although I was never aware of the circumstances.....

Have also been at Elm Park when the Cravens'60 3-car track testing unit traveled eastbound - it looked remarkably small again the usual D78 surface stock...

[Deleted]

I seem to recall - in the mists of time - a period when there was a daily C stock run to Upminster which went passenger both ways (and stabled overnight) - may have been to do with heavy cleaning routine or something similar.

On a smilar note - are C stock allowed now to Neasden - they used to berth there and work in serive late night / early morning.? (even longer ago I state -)

[prjb]

colin said:

PRJB - has anybody given any thought to the current gauging issues when deciding the dimensions of the S stock? I appreciate that things like the D stocks longer car bodies, and the A & C stocks body sway are different issues entirely - but all the same, I hope the powers that be have done their sums right ;D ;D ;D ;D

Yes, the trains are being built to be within the current gauge, but obviously any new stock gets the 'low speed, polystyrene' treatment before gaining authority to run. This includes the Cinematic letter, or is that a Kinematic Envelope? I'm no engineer!
This isn't the Central line project you know! ;D

[prjb]

trainopd78 said:

I recieved an internal E-mail a few weeks ago from the LSM stating that they are prohibited until further notice until various issues were resolved. I'll try to find it when im back at work and PM you a copy.

Yes, apperently they have hit some platforms, but apparently they can run if they have to but under certain conditions.

[prjb]

davesgcr said:

I seem to recall - in the mists of time - a period when there was a daily C stock run to Upminster which went passenger both ways (and stabled overnight) - may have been to do with heavy cleaning routine or something similar.

On a smilar note - are C stock allowed now to Neasden - they used to berth there and work in serive late night / early morning.? (even longer ago I state -)

They still have 'Dagenham East' and 'Upminster' etc on the current blinds. All 'C' Stock heavy overhauls used to take place at Upminster once upon a time. You must have seen old photo's of un-refurbished 'C' with the Upminster depot windmill logo on the front?

[Tubeboy]

Can the c stock go to Richmond?

[Colin]

Yes they can - though it's very rare.

[trainopd78]

But only platforms 4 and 6 as when you change ends at Richmond 5 and 7 are Cat A platforms and there are no C stock opo monitors.

[towerman]

If the Uxbridge-Barking service comes about with the introduction of "S" stock,I take it some trains will be stabled at Barking Sdgs overnight.Will the sdgs have to be lengthened to accomodate the new stock?

[Chris M]

Related to this, what will happen to Triangle Sidings? AIUI they only just fit a C stock and the S stock is going to be longer?

[Deleted]

I think Barking sidings has some slack to take longer trains, at least on the single train roads.

Triangle is very tight and it is difficult to see how it could be lengthened.

[trainopd78]

Barking sidings can hold 8 car trains in all roads. The H&C currently uses most of this accommodation however. We would have to find somewhere new to stable additional trains, especially as triangle would become redundant with 7 car S stock trains without some VERY VERY heavy engineering works.

[towerman]

This could possibly be why the Jubilee will be turfed out of Neasden when "S" stock arrives as some of the H & C/teacup trains may have to be stabled there.