Odd occurrences yesterday!

[chrish]

On my way in to work yesterday, the D stock I was traveling on seemed to have a slight mental breakdown! Traveling up the Wimbledon branch, all was fine until we approached Parsons Green, and which point the DVA piped up "The next station is Mile End. Change for the Central Line", which caused some odd looks to be cast around the carriage. OK, I thought, just lost the signal and got confused. It managed to announce "This is Parsons Green", and all was well!

That is until we were half way to Fulham Broadway... when it chirps up again... "The next station is Fulham Broadway. Change for the DLR from Bow Church" Now I had assumed that the entire of the regular announcements, including any interchange info, would have been recorded as 1 message and played when appropraite... but this would seem to say otherwise! Unless they have in fact moved the DLR around to help Chelsea FC!

So... my question is... if the announcements are made up of fragments and seemingly queued at set locations.. why when i manually type in 2 announcements 1 after the other does the second one seem to be ignored by the system!

On a slightly related note (or not but I am going to write this anyway!), why do I keep getting shown as a Northfields via Victoria train , when entering Bow Road on the Westbound!

[Deleted]

the reason why you are seeing a northfields is that the train describer system is not working properly between bromley by bow and whitechapel its missing a code

[superteacher]

aetearlscourt said:

the reason why you are seeing a northfields is that the train describer system is not working properly between bromley by bow and whitechapel its missing a code

This dates back to when the District used to operate to Hounslow West. Does this mean that the system still has a Hounslow West description in there somewhere?

[Oracle]

But the District stopped running to HW in the sutumn of 1964! Unless it has been left as "Northfields" just in case of diversion. NF is of course the limit now for C/D and A stock after the Kingsley and Lampton Road bridges were replaced in tube gauge size, thus preventing the use of Hounslow Central's #-over.

[superteacher]

Maybe the system had a Hounslow West and a Northfields description? As far as I know, no District line train has operated in service to Northfields since the Hounslow workings ceased in 1964.

[trc666]

The only way a District will get to Northfields is by a driver accepting a wrong stick at Acton Town or a deliberate diversion due to an emergency and/or work on the Ealing Broadway branch.

[railtechnician]

superteacher said:

Maybe the system had a Hounslow West and a Northfields description? As far as I know, no District line train has operated in service to Northfields since the Hounslow workings ceased in 1964.

Well I'd say there's your answer! I doubt the TD kit has been updated since then or at least not in regard to obsolete destinations. Train descriptions tend to linger on and indeed some were included just in case. You'd be surprised what you can punch up on the describers from the Earls Court signal desks.

Of course faults giving wrong codes usually due to a missing A,B,C,D or E 'bit' will put up wrong descriptions. If the fault is local it will usually only affect the local TD but if it's on the transmission side it will be transmitted right down the line unless corrected by a vigilant signal operator or a lineman. I remember dealing with a dodgy TD cable between Turnham Green and Acton that put some very odd descriptions up until we sorted it out.

Brian

[Oracle]

The last train sent to Hounslow Central "in service" but on a rail tour, was the D Stock tour in 1980:
mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/LUArchive/html/d78_metroliner_tour.html

whic I was on as you all now.

[Colin]

There's a good description of the TD system by 'aetearlscourt' in this thread (reply #1):
www.districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Signals&thread=1174082166&page=1

[bowchurch]

TD as 'Northfields via Victoria' at Mile End - never seen that before ;D

[metman]

Weird! Wouldn't it be weird to see 1. HAMMERSMITH via Victoria there instead! That would really confuse people!

[Deleted]

its a regular occurence these days as the equipment is getting beyound its use by date let alone its sell by date

[railtechnician]

aetearlscourt said:

its a regular occurence these days as the equipment is getting beyound its use by date let alone its sell by date

Does Acton East IMR still have its drum? I dunno how old drums are but they have to be at least 70 years old and probably longer.
When the electronic TD used to fail the old drum kept on working except when its string got a little short. More than once I cleared local TD problems by tying the weight back on!

Brian

[Deleted]

i wouldnt know thats a tubelines area we only cover upto the end of the sidings at acton (east end) we have t/d drums at earls court (reciever from parsons green) and turnham green (reciever from gunnersbury) we do have a electronic version at south ken for the east and west bounds and this is know as a PIMMS unit if they failed i wouldnt have a scooby doo on how to fix them we do have 2 spares at earls court but i will leave that old stuff to my older collegues

[railtechnician]

aetearlscourt said:

i wouldnt know thats a tubelines area we only cover upto the end of the sidings at acton (east end) we have t/d drums at earls court (reciever from parsons green) and turnham green (reciever from gunnersbury) we do have a electronic version at south ken for the east and west bounds and this is know as a PIMMS unit if they failed i wouldnt have a scooby doo on how to fix them we do have 2 spares at earls court but i will leave that old stuff to my older collegues

Funny thing I always thought that Metronet maintenance TOs apparently tended not to travel too far from their depots. One of the joys of working out of Bollo House was working the entire Picc, half the Jube, Ealing Broadway and occasionally parts of the Northern. In the 90s it was absolute joy doing not only signal maintenance but also comms and electrical maintenance and installation too which broke up the monotony of night maintenance, track shunts, delta spreads or call work. Before so many colleagues left to become self employed we also used to do a lot of rerailing jobs too so plenty of time spent in 'foreign' IMRs.

Of course at the East end of the Picc the Ash House TOs were comfort freaks and were never keen on working west of Kings Cross or on other lines, each TO had his 'own' IMR and tended only to retain local knowledge of that designated one!

I thought you might have had occasion to test the frames at Acton on rerailing jobs as the District was responsible for its own track maintenance at Acton, although we used to do it all when I first worked there. Mind you it would often be someone from Signal House and Earls Court District TOs were a scarce resource anywhere west of Earls Court at times!

Brian

[Deleted]

i have never had to do a frame test at either of the acton IMR's as we dont go that far down at all on the district we only go up to the next signal and its replacing track after chiswick park on the w/b WLX *** dont know the numbers and on the e/b district we start from the home signals at chiswick park
we rarely do any p-way jobs anymore only if acton cannot cover them during the week and the days of doing a stock and switch during the week is over they are scared of the over-run so these get left to the weekend usually a sat night due to the longer engineering hours
i have been to the acton IMR's and also hanger lane and ealing broadway but this was about a year ago now i think when they found on the northern a piece of the interlocking had fell off so we had to go round checking every IMR even though offically its a metronet asset tubelines has the contract to do the work on it due to the lack of staff we have

[railtechnician]

aetearlscourt said:

i have never had to do a frame test at either of the acton IMR's as we dont go that far down at all on the district we only go up to the next signal and its replacing track after chiswick park on the w/b WLX *** dont know the numbers and on the e/b district we start from the home signals at chiswick park
we rarely do any p-way jobs anymore only if acton cannot cover them during the week and the days of doing a stock and switch during the week is over they are scared of the over-run so these get left to the weekend usually a sat night due to the longer engineering hours
i have been to the acton IMR's and also hanger lane and ealing broadway but this was about a year ago now i think when they found on the northern a piece of the interlocking had fell off so we had to go round checking every IMR even though offically its a metronet asset tubelines has the contract to do the work on it due to the lack of staff we have

Yep lack of staff has hit quite a bit. I recall times a few years ago when I would be the only TO to cover Acton and all stations west on the Picc and EBY with just one colleague at Arnos Grove and no-one in between and sometimes no-one at Wembley park either. When I first worked on the Picc there were TO depots at Heathrow, Northfields, Acton, Hammersmith, King's Cross and Arnos Grove. At that time the Jubilee was looked after by the Met and Bakerloo TOs I believe. Of course it all changed when the InfraCos were created, we took over the old Jube including maintenance on the Met from Finchley road (where the depot was only covered in the peak) to just south of Preston Road, absorbing some TOs from Wembley park, and Earls Ct control room but we were short staffed even then so Hammersmith closed then Heathrow, then Northfields. The staff shortage was never addressed and TOs left to go private causing the closure of King's Cross and a reshuffle to fully cover Acton, Earls Ct., Wembley Park and Arnos Grove. Around the time that I retired the Jube was getting its own signal staff including two SOMs made up from Picc TOs and the apprentices we had been training were just passing out but even so I think the Picc runs with just 20 or so TOs to cover the whole line now.

[Tom]

railtechnician said:

aetearlscourt said:

its a regular occurence these days as the equipment is getting beyound its use by date let alone its sell by date

Does Acton East IMR still have its drum? I dunno how old drums are but they have to be at least 70 years old and probably longer.

I believe it still does - though I'll check the TD bookwiring to confirm.

[c5]

What is a Drum??!!!

[railtechnician]

c5 said:

What is a Drum??!!!

A drum is one type of TD Receiver, quite ancient these days but there are still a few about. It stores incoming TD ABCDE codes for retransmission to the next TD site or to the sign controllers which put up the platform TDs. Like many bits of ancient kit it is a marvellous machine having rows of spring loaded buttons arranged in a circle. When a TD is received it steps to the next free row of buttons and sets them as required, one 'train' being stored per row.
Output from the drum is controlled by the signalling e.g. when the first track of the starting signal selection is replaced the stored description will be 'read' from the next 'stored' row of buttons and transmitted to the local sign controller to indicate the next train or to the next reception site.

(I have only ever seen one other piece of kit anything like the 'drum' albeit much smaller but working in similar fashion as a mechanical dial pulse regenerator whereby incoming dial pulses set pins on a disc and the set pins were then 'read' to replicate the pulse train.)

Drums were used on the District in large numbers and elsewhere I believe, whereas the Picc used Ribbon Storage, a fancy name for paper tape, TD. There are various types of other receivers based on relays and/or electronics and other systems too i.e. computer based.

Brian

[c5]

Ah! I see now.

Thanks Rail Technician! ;D ;D ;D

Old Kit on the Dist and Picc! Never ;D ;D

[Deleted]

There are several TD drums in the COPQ composite at Quainton Road. They are exceedingly complex in their construction - I certainly couldn't comprehend their inner workings just from visual observation.

[railtechnician]

theonekea said:

There are several TD drums in the COPQ composite at Quainton Road. They are exceedingly complex in their construction - I certainly couldn't comprehend their inner workings just from visual observation.

I'm sure the LT Museum had one at Covent Garden the last time I visited a couple of years or so ago.

As for the workings its all done with electromagnets, springs, ratchet and pawl, detent, armature etc. It is a beautiful machine but the one weakness in the drum is the length of the piece of string that has the rather substantial weight on it. Every time a code is stored the string shortens slightly as the weight is wound up towards the bottom of the drum. The more trains that are stored the further the weight needs to travel so if the string is too short for the maximum required number of storages inevitably it will one day break! It is the weight that cancels a storage once it has been read so its not usually too long before the problem is noticed !

Brian

[trainopd78]

railtechnician said:

theonekea said:

There are several TD drums in the COPQ composite at Quainton Road. They are exceedingly complex in their construction - I certainly couldn't comprehend their inner workings just from visual observation.

I'm sure the LT Museum had one at Covent Garden the last time I visited a couple of years or so ago.

As for the workings its all done with electromagnets, springs, ratchet and pawl, detent, armature etc. It is a beautiful machine but the one weakness in the drum is the length of the piece of string that has the rather substantial weight on it. Every time a code is stored the string shortens slightly as the weight is wound up towards the bottom of the drum. The more trains that are stored the further the weight needs to travel so if the string is too short for the maximum required number of storages inevitably it will one day break! It is the weight that cancels a storage once it has been read so its not usually too long before the problem is noticed !

Brian

There was, next to the simulators.