|
|
Post by The Tram Man on Oct 23, 2009 12:25:55 GMT
Does anybody have any pictures of the 1972-stock blue-top trial-refurb set?
I have found one with a problem:
Its only of the DM and on the right hand side and all you see is to the first set of doors.
Thanks in advance to all.
Cheers/TTM
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2009 15:24:10 GMT
There was no "1972-stock blue-top trial-refurb set". What there was, follows:
8 cars 1967 "blue-top" trial refurb train for the Victoria Line (3061+3110).
7 cars 1972 "blue-top" trial livery on the Northern, which was an external paint only (3204+3522).
This was followed by 7 cars 1972 "blue doors" trial livery on the Northern which was also an external paint only (3227+3518).
Finally, there was 7 cars 1972 in what turned out to be accepted as the "corporate" (red-white-blue) livery on the Northern, again an external paint only (3202+3523).
The Bakerloo and Northern had no "trial refurbs", apart from on two withdrawn UNDMs. What was decided for the Victoria Line (with much taken from the "trial" Victoria Line refurb) was incorporated on the Bakerloo and Northern refurbs, modified with the interiors changed to go with the line colours. All thre lines' refurbs were in "corporate livery", and only 3x7 refurbs were done on the Northern Line's 1972 MkI.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Tram Man on Oct 23, 2009 21:58:45 GMT
Wait im confused. I read on Wikipedia that the 1972-stock only worked on the Bakerloo, Northern and Piccadilly Lines.
And i know for a fact that the blue-top train of 72-stock rolled on the Bakerloo. I have read that and it was written by a guy hwo used to work for LUL. Again there were no pictures. And you say that there was no trial-refurb on the Bakerloo. Have you worked for/are you working for LUL?
I have seen ONE picture of the blue top on the Bakerloo.
And ok. It may not have been a refurb but atleast it was repainted. I WAS HALF RIGHT ATLEAST!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 23, 2009 22:21:41 GMT
1972 Stock has not worked on the Piccadilly line.
As reganorak has already quite clearly said only Northern Line 1972 mkI Stock were trial painted.
Bakerloo Line 1972 mkII stock went straight from original 'red doors' livery to full refurb in corporate red-white-blue.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,310
|
Post by Colin on Oct 23, 2009 22:29:32 GMT
Therein lies your problem - Wikipedia can be a very useful source information; it can also be edited by anyone and you have take everything on there with a very large pinch of salt. |
|
|
|
Post by The Tram Man on Oct 23, 2009 22:32:24 GMT
Ok. But look at wikipedia London Underground 1972-stock page & this picture(http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2848325142/in/set-72157606546720596/) and tell me that is not a... mkI DM... Wait what? The mkII worked the Bakerloo, mkI:s on the Northern... WHAT!? But i quote from Wikipedia: ...Tentative designs for a new Northern Line fleet were abandoned when the go-ahead was given for the Piccadilly Line to be extended to Heathrow Airport. That required a totally new fleet of trains to replace the 1959 Tube Stock then in use. The plan was made to transfer the 1959 trains to the Northern, to allow the worst of the 1938 stock there to be scrapped, but there were only 76 1959 Tube stock trains, and the Northern Line needed more than that to operate. Originally it was planned to refurbish some 30 1938 Tube Stock trains, but this was scrapped in favour of 30 new trains - 1972 Mk1 Tube Stock. Edit: Now i know why i got confused: on all pages i have seen both they allways start the page with a refurbished set. You try to tell these apart without reading the headline: www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/1972MkItubeStock/www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/1972MkIItubeStock/Note that both are marked for the Bakerloo. |
|
|
|
Post by 1938 on Oct 23, 2009 22:43:59 GMT
Finally, there was 7 cars 1972 in what turned out to be accepted as the "corporate" (red-white-blue) livery on the Northern, again an external paint only (3202+3523). Was there not a Northern '59 given the same? |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Oct 24, 2009 7:18:43 GMT
Finally, there was 7 cars 1972 in what turned out to be accepted as the "corporate" (red-white-blue) livery on the Northern, again an external paint only (3202+3523). Was there not a Northern '59 given the same? 1028+1043 was painted in corporate livery and given a minor interior refurbishment -- mainly repainting and some new panelling. The only other painted 59 stock was the heritage train. |
|
|
|
Post by 21146 on Oct 24, 2009 16:06:45 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by The Tram Man on Oct 24, 2009 16:13:46 GMT
Thats what i thought it was. I was wrong... Its a Northern train.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2009 20:00:34 GMT
Was there not a Northern '59 given the same? 1028+1043 was painted in corporate livery and given a minor interior refurbishment -- mainly repainting and some new panelling. The only other painted 59 stock was the heritage train. I remember stumbling upon the "refurb" 59 one evening at Camden Town going to East Finchley. It was 1993 I think. Irish Underground |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Oct 25, 2009 23:20:48 GMT
The 1970s-80s period was rather confusing! Ridership was on the down turn on LT but there were a thousand plus cars of 1938ts that needed replacement as they were over 30 years old. Their compressors were failing and the unions were not helping matters.
The Victoria Line had just opened and had a new fleet of 1967 stock trains. The aim was to replace the 1938 stock on the Northern with new articulated trains and to that end one pair of 1935 stock motor cars were modified as such. It was not a success. In order to dispel the tag of misery line form the Northern, 30 1972 stock trains (Mk1) were ordered. These were smart aluminium trains, of the same design as the Victoria Line. This also kept Metro Cammell in business.
At this time the Piccadilly Line was operating 70 odd 1959 stock trains and 15 1938 stock trains. When the Heathrow Extension was started the plan was to move the 59 stock trains to the Northern and replace that number of 1938ts trains. A new fleet of 1973 stock was to be built. In the meantime, 33 trains of 1972ts (MkII) trains were built to save Metro-Cammell, justified by their eventual use on the recently authorised Fleet (now called Jubilee) Line.
Both 1972 stock batches (63 - 7 car trains) then worked on the Northern, until the 1959 stock begun to be transfered to the Northern in 1975-6. This then lead to trains of 1972 MkII stock moving to the Bakerloo Line. Further scrapping of 1938 stock occured at this stage until the Northern was made up of mostly 1959 and 1972mk1 stock and a few 38stock trains. The Bakerloo was made up of 38stock, now extra heavy overhauled and 1972stock mk2s. This was in preparation for the split of the Bakerloo to the Jubilee in 1979. The 1972mk2 found themselves on the new Jubilee line with the 34-36 EHO trains of 1938 stock on the now one route Bakerloo.
The original plan was to build a new fleet for the Jubilee and move the 1972mk2s to the Bakerloo. This happened, and the 1983 stock was created. The first batch of 1983 stock (15 trains) arrived on the Jubilee in 1984 and 15 trains of 72mk2 stock moved back to the Northern. 15 trains of 59 stock moved to the Bakerloo and replaced 15 EHO 38ts tains which were scrapped.
When the last batch of 1983 stock arrived on the Jubilee Line in 1988, the remaining 1972mk2 stock moved to the Northern. The Bakerloo was then run by 1959 stock for a year or so in about 1988. This allowed the 1972mk2 fleet to be converted to OPO and all 33 trains (less losses) move to run the now Watford-less Bakerloo Line. The 1959 stock moved back to the Northern to join the 72 mk1 stock.
Early livery experiments took place on the A62, C69, 1967 and 1972mk1 stock. These were the blue doors, blue top and orsman liveries, the latter being chosen. The Northern Line 1972mk1 stock displayed all three. In addition, 3 trains were given a full refurb with new interiors similar to the 67 and 72mk2 tube stocks but with black/grey(!) grab poles. These however, were still crew operated. Eventually the 3 trains were convered to opo and sent to the Bakerloo.
Two 1959 stock trains were repainted. One received the 'Mars Bar' (Heritage) livery in 1990 for the Northern Line Centenery (i.e. Red, Black and Cream) which I remember well as a wee nipper! The other received the current LU livery with cream interior. Both remained crew operated but a few cars of the Mars set remain. It is well know that the 4 car and 3 car units of the heritage set did not run well together and were run separately!
That's about it really!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 12:21:19 GMT
Was there not a Northern '59 given the same? 1028+1043 was painted in corporate livery and given a minor interior refurbishment -- mainly repainting and some new panelling. The only other painted 59 stock was the heritage train. Plus the 56 stock car that was lacquered, but retained it's unpainted silver condition - number escapes me for the moment. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 22:39:15 GMT
The 1970s-80s period was rather confusing! Ridership was on the down turn on LT but there were a thousand plus cars of 1938ts that needed replacement as they were over 30 years old. Their compressors were failing and the unions were not helping matters. The Victoria Line had just opened and had a new fleet of 1967 stock trains. The aim was to replace the 1938 stock on the Northern with new articulated trains and to that end one pair of 1935 stock motor cars were modified as such. It was not a success. In order to dispel the tag of misery line form the Northern, 30 1972 stock trains (Mk1) were ordered. These were smart aluminium trains, of the same design as the Victoria Line. This also kept Metro Cammell in business. At this time the Piccadilly Line was operating 70 odd 1959 stock trains and 15 1938 stock trains. When the Heathrow Extension was started the plan was to move the 59 stock trains to the Northern and replace that number of 1938ts trains. A new fleet of 1973 stock was to be built. In the meantime, 33 trains of 1972ts (MkII) trains were built to save Metro-Cammell, justified by their eventual use on the recently authorised Fleet (now called Jubilee) Line. Both 1972 stock batches (63 - 7 car trains) then worked on the Northern, until the 1959 stock begun to be transfered to the Northern in 1975-6. This then lead to trains of 1972 MkII stock moving to the Bakerloo Line. Further scrapping of 1938 stock occured at this stage until the Northern was made up of mostly 1959 and 1972mk1 stock and a few 38stock trains. The Bakerloo was made up of 38stock, now extra heavy overhauled and 1972stock mk2s. This was in preparation for the split of the Bakerloo to the Jubilee in 1979. The 1972mk2 found themselves on the new Jubilee line with the 34-36 EHO trains of 1938 stock on the now one route Bakerloo. The original plan was to build a new fleet for the Jubilee and move the 1972mk2s to the Bakerloo. This happened, and the 1983 stock was created. The first batch of 1983 stock (15 trains) arrived on the Jubilee in 1984 and 15 trains of 72mk2 stock moved back to the Northern. 15 trains of 59 stock moved to the Bakerloo and replaced 15 EHO 38ts tains which were scrapped. When the last batch of 1983 stock arrived on the Jubilee Line in 1988, the remaining 1972mk2 stock moved to the Northern. The Bakerloo was then run by 1959 stock for a year or so in about 1988. This allowed the 1972mk2 fleet to be converted to OPO and all 33 trains (less losses) move to run the now Watford-less Bakerloo Line. The 1959 stock moved back to the Northern to join the 72 mk1 stock. Early livery experiments took place on the A62, C69, 1967 and 1972mk1 stock. These were the blue doors, blue top and orsman liveries, the latter being chosen. The Northern Line 1972mk1 stock displayed all three. In addition, 3 trains were given a full refurb with new interiors similar to the 67 and 72mk2 tube stocks but with black/grey(!) grab poles. These however, were still crew operated. Eventually the 3 trains were convered to opo and sent to the Bakerloo. Two 1959 stock trains were repainted. One received the 'Mars Bar' (Heritage) livery in 1990 for the Northern Line Centenery (i.e. Red, Black and Cream) which I remember well as a wee nipper! The other received the current LU livery with cream interior. Both remained crew operated but a few cars of the Mars set remain. It is well know that the 4 car and 3 car units of the heritage set did not run well together and were run separately! That's about it really! An excellent run down but I never recall seeing 38 stock on the Bakerloo in the 1980's. Any time I saw the Bakerloo (usually at Waterloo) I always saw 72 stock (with the red doors - MKII??). If my memory serves me correct it would be in the period 1984 - 1989 before I moved away to Ireland. I would have been 8 years old when I left London. My outstanding memory of 38 stock in London was at Morden one day in 1988 (I think) when this strange Red Train was in platform 5 as I got off a train from Tooting Broadway on platform 4. I was memorised! Irish Underground |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Oct 28, 2009 0:56:15 GMT
I think most of the 1938 stock were withdrawn in the 1980s from the Bakerloo. If I understand correctly, the final 5 were replaced in 1985. 4 trains were brought back into service on the Northern and were withdrawn in 1988, so it may be one of them you saw. Lucky you! I was 7 at the time!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 11:19:53 GMT
The official line at the time was that 4 plus a spare (1938) were brought back for the Northern Line. In reality, all five ran with no distinction about a particular one being 'spare'. Whether all five actually ran at any one time, I don't know but there was nothing to stop it doing so.
|
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 28, 2009 19:27:47 GMT
The official line at the time was that 4 plus a spare (1938) were brought back for the Northern Line. In reality, all five ran with no distinction about a particular one being 'spare'. Whether all five actually ran at any one time, I don't know but there was nothing to stop it doing so. When lines run a mixture of stock, do they each have their own diagrams or are they used completely interchangeably? At present only the Victoria line has a mixture, (and the 09 stock seems indeed to be limited to certain workings) but in the past I would expect that different services on the same line would have to be operated by specific train types because of the need for the right stock to end up at the right depot, the need to ensure a driver booked to take over a train was qualified to drive it. In olden days, there were special factors such as the 9-coach project on the Northern Line and, on the District, the need for an R-stock train to turn up when it was time for attaching the extra 2 cars to a 6-coach train for the evening peak. If separate scehduling was the practice on the Northern, and there were only four 1938-stock diagrams, the fifth unit could only have been pressed into service to cover a 1972 or 1959 diagram, which would have been very much a last resort. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 20:51:39 GMT
The Northern Line timetable at the time made no distinction as to what stock worked which service, which also applied to the 1972s as well. I daresay the depots had their own plan for stock allocation for maintenance reasons, as to which trains stabled early, all of which was subject to the state of the service.
The District did have nominated stock workings until 1971, but it wasn't unusual for something else to be substituted from time to time, with the depots telling the Traffic Controller the variations.
When the new trains were being introduced onto the Central c.1960, again there were nominated workings during the transition stage: '7' or '8' (Standard Stock), 'N8' (1959/62) and 'C8' (Cravens).
On the Piccadilly it was '7' (Standard Stock), 'U7' (1938 Stock with UNDMs) and 'N7' (1959 Stock).
The Bakerloo and Northern were '7' (1938 with a 3- and 4-car unit with a DM car at each end of each unit) and 'U7' (1938 which included the three-car with UNDM).
The Met, of course, showed SS6 (Steam Stock), PP3 (Push & Pull), P6 and P8 (P Stock), T6 and T8 (T Stock) and F8 (F Stock). The H&C in the 1950s was O6 and the Circle P5. The Met continued with A8 and A4 for many years.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Nov 6, 2009 1:16:18 GMT
I guess made complicated by CO and CP in the late 50s early 60s! The Circle stock although consisting of both O and P stock was no doubt simply signed 'P' then?
|
|
|
|
Post by 1938 on Nov 6, 2009 11:25:49 GMT
I guess made complicated by CO and CP in the late 50s early 60s! The Circle stock although consisting of both O and P stock was no doubt simply signed 'P' then? I think they were signed COP. |
|
