Smoking cars on LT?

[metman]

I now have the tough task of working out which cars on each LT train I'm modelling were non smoking/smoking.

What was the ratio? (1/3 in later days I believe?)

For example, my CO/CP stock is made up of M-M+M-M (and will possibly include a trailer). Which of these cars were smoking?

My T stock is made up of M-9T-7T-DT. Any idea which cars were non-smoking? I know the first compartment in the T stock DM was 'Ladies Only' and that seems to be the same for the compartment nearest the guard on the Dreadnought Brake coaches.

Thanks Metman

[Chris W]

I seem to remember (hey I was only 9 when they were withdrawn) that the DMs were non-smoking and trailers were smoking...

I don't think that the D78s were ever smoking friendly as smoking on trains was banned in the early 80s and was banned completely on all LU property after Kings Cross in 1987!!

[metman]

I think you're right Chris. I've been digging around and the trailers don't appear to have 'no smoking' signs. Brian Hardy's Surface Stock book suggests that some O/P driving motors were divided into two. The COP story has diagram with the 'A' end O stock car split in two but that was before the addition of trailers.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2010 14:41:42 GMT Chris W said:

I seem to remember (hey I was only 9 when they were withdrawn) that the DMs were non-smoking and trailers were smoking...!

Driving motor cars only I think due to the batteries. Gassing batteries and naked flames don't mix!

[Deleted]

Smoking on trains, platforms and indeed anywhere beyond the ticket barrier was banned immediately after the Oxford Circus fire - think it was around a week to ten days later, in November 1984. I remember the temporary No Smoking stickers being pasted in the windows of the smoking carriages. Oxford Circus was caused by a smoking materials getting behind a hoarding behind which were flammable materials being used to renovate the Bakerloo line platforms.

Smoking anywhere on LU premises was banned immediately after the Kings Cross fire, in November 1987. Kings Cross was caused by a smoker lighting up near the top of the Piccadilly escalators, ready for when they went past the ticket barrier.

If the Oxford Circus fire hadn't happened, and smoking hadn't subsequently been partially banned as it was, then arguably KX wouldn't have happened. Given the failings of LU management of the time in recognising fire hazards (for example, the risk of allowing smoking immediately beyond the barriers), it's likely that something else serious would have happened sooner or later though.

[Deleted]

Sorry, meant to add my answer to the original question! I think in either 3-car or 4-car units one carriage was for smokers, at least latterly, meaning two smoking carriages on a normal train.

[Oracle]

I can only advise from experience with the 1959 Stock on the Picc...at least one trailer was a fog-bound car in each unit. I used to aim for the rearmost but one at Pccadilly Circus and brave the fumes and tar (on the ceilings), in order to try and get a seat.

[metman]

Brian, was wasn't the fire at Oxford Circus on the Victoria Line platform?

Thank you all for the answers. It seems to me that generally the trailer cars were smoking and the rest were Non-smoking. Otherwise I guess it's just a case of looking at as many photos as possible!

[Dstock7080]

Apr 13, 2010 14:41:42 GMT Chris W said:

I don't think that the D78s were ever smoking friendly as smoking on trains was banned in the early 80s and was banned completely on all LU property after Kings Cross in 1987!!

D Stock did indeed have smoking cars, the two trailers.

R Stock which were all motored, in 7-car days had 233xx and 235xx cars as smoking.

As C Stock has 3 trailers, they were fitted with brackets between the 'double-glazing' which would hold a removable clear perspex square with a 'NO SMOKING' roundel transfer on it. This would then allow the standard two trailers to be non-smoking.

Sometimes the depot staff 'forgot' to allocate a smoking car to a reformed train, causing much angst with the commuters of Wimbledon!

[metman]

I'm having trouble with the CO/CP stock. Because the units were formed M-T-M and M-M the smoking cars seemed to be all over the place!!

[ruislip]

On the A stock the smoking cars were 6xxODD. On the 1959/62 stocks the smoking cars were 2xxx.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2010 21:51:36 GMT metman said:

Brian, was wasn't the fire at Oxford Circus on the Victoria Line platform?

It was the northbound Victoria line platform that was gutted, yes - one of the cross-passages between the Victoria and Bakerloo platforms was blocked by hoardings and being used for storage of paints, strippers and other solvents while the Bakerloo line platform was being renovated (the 1960s decoration being removed and replaced with the maze mosaic which has in turn just been replaced again with plain white tiles!).

The source of the fire was from a passenger on the Victoria line platform causing something to go behind the hoarding at that end of the cross-passage - sorry for not making that clearer in my original post - meaning that the Victoria line platform was the one affected.

[metman]

I've been doing some more research. The O stock when new was made up of 2 car units with the A end car having both smoking and non smoking. When the trailer was added, this was turned into non-smoking. My question is? Did the two car units on the Met and eventually the Circle Line have the A end car as non-smoking? Any ideas?

Met O/P stock 'A' M-T(n)-M + M-T(n)-M + M(n)-M 'D'

H&City O stock 'A' M-T(n)-M + M-T(n)-M 'D'

Circle O/P stock 'A' M-T(n)-M + M(n)-M 'D' (n) denotes non-smoking

Is this correct?

[Deleted]

Both the D and 1983 (Batch I) Stocks had 'smoking' trailers from new.

I have some dates when smoking was banned on trains and stations (will try and dig them out sometime) and recall the temporary paper sticker roundels that were first applied to the smoking cars until permanent transfers were applied. The temporary signs had a "No-Smoking" roundel on a square white background.

[auxsetreq]

The eight car 62 stock had two smoking cars which were the 2000 compressor trailers. If I remember correctly they were built in Derby, the rest of the train was MetCam. Don't forget for the interior of whatever train you are modelling to include a patina of nicotine yellow on the Formica and stick a fag butt in there for that authentic smell. They were absolutely revolting............

[Deleted]

Aug 17, 2010 16:19:32 GMT @auxsetreq said:

The eight car 62 stock had two smoking cars which were the 2000 compressor trailers. If I remember correctly they were built in Derby, the rest of the train was MetCam. Don't forget for the interior of whatever train you are modelling to include a patina of nicotine yellow on the Formica and stick a fag butt in there for that authentic smell. They were absolutely revolting............

They were indeed revolting and I'd like to take credit for having contributed to that state of affairs, but Oracle is right in what he says about being able to get a seat. Travelling from Woodford to North Acton and back every day was an absolute uncrowded pleasure if you happened to smoke in those days!

Regarding the modelling, I would assume that to keep it to scale a good choice for fag butts would be small sections of raw spaghetti dipped firstly in tippex for the remaining unsmoked bit and then finished with a dark grey permanent marker pen for the ash. Oh, and remember to make sure they get into the scale wooden slatted floor I assume would also feature in the models!

Richard

[SE13]

Indeed I can remember streaming eyes getting off the train some days!

The butts always seemed to fit perfectly into the slats though to be left smouldering causing even more smoke.

And remember I rely on a pack of 20 a day.

[Deleted]

Aug 17, 2010 15:38:13 GMT @reganorak said:

Both the D and 1983 (Batch I) Stocks had 'smoking' trailers from new.

I have some dates when smoking was banned on trains and stations (will try and dig them out sometime) and recall the temporary paper sticker roundels that were first applied to the smoking cars until permanent transfers were applied. The temporary signs had a "No-Smoking" roundel on a square white background.

I remember those temporary signs - IIRC the train and beyondticket barrier ban came in on the Monday or Tuesday after the Oxford Circus fire in 1984, and the complete network-wide ban was either the Thursday or Friday immediately after Kings Cross in 1987.

The ban imposed after Oxford Circus almost certainly was a factor in Kings Cross happening when it did, because passengers leaving stations became much more likely to light up a cigarette on escalators in anticipation of passing the ticket barrier. If the complete ban had been imposed immediately after Oxford Circus then a Kings Cross disaster might well have not happened, or at least would have been less likely.

[SE13]

Hmmmm..... I moved here in late 83, now I can still remember travelling back almost every weekend, and until at least 86 smoking was still allowed on the trains. The thing that sticks in the mind was buying an LP in Camden and carrying it round with me all day (going to a match as well) and some ash flicked into the carrier and burnt a hole without damaging the record.

I stand to be corrected of course, but the train ban was definitely some time after I moved to the back end of beyond Lincoln.

Though I am sure that station smoking was banned after KX, I think you could still smoke on NR concourses. (KX frightened me to death, so I've never smoked indoors since)

[Deleted]

Aug 17, 2010 21:55:01 GMT SE13 said:

Hmmmm..... I moved here in late 83, now I can still remember travelling back almost every weekend, and until at least 86 smoking was still allowed on the trains. The thing that sticks in the mind was buying an LP in Camden and carrying it round with me all day (going to a match as well) and some ash flicked into the carrier and burnt a hole without damaging the record.

I stand to be corrected of course, but the train ban was definitely some time after I moved to the back end of beyond Lincoln.

Though I am sure that station smoking was banned after KX, I think you could still smoke on NR concourses. (KX frightened me to death, so I've never smoked indoors since)

I had a look at the Fennell Report and I was wrong about when the the inital smoking ban following Oxford Circus was implemented - Fennell states in the opening of the report that this came into effect in February 1985 (it was, as I thought, a ban on smoking on trains or beyond tube station ticket barrier lines).

I'm trying to also think now when a smoking ban was applied to British Rail suburban trains - and I can't honestly remember. Logic would suggest that, on the Great Northern Electrics at least, this would have come into force also in February 1985 given that they use London Underground stations. Some InterCity trains did still allow smoking up until around 2002-2005 on different routes though.

[SE13]

Ah, that could be right then.

I do remember the ban being beyond the barriers, but people were still lighting up when getting off trains, or going up the escalators, or even finishing cigarettes down on the platforms before boarding.

However, wasn't there a "transition" period where it was banned on the trains, but advisory between the barriers? Perhaps this is where I'm getting confuzzled?

[Tomcakes]

The last smoking trains on the national network finished in 2006, I believe the day before the general smoking ban was introduced. I think only GNER and Virgin allowed it by that point. It was often irritating that the smoking coach was frequently less busy compared to the others.

[harlesden]

Drifting ever so slightly, was Eurostar always a smoke-free service or simply one of the first to ban smoking.
In the late 90's I used to occasionally travel by train from Zurich to Paris, smoking all the way, but when I got on the Eurostar, I had to remain smoke free all the way to Waterloo.

[auxsetreq]

Aug 17, 2010 17:31:20 GMT @whistlekiller said:

Aug 17, 2010 16:19:32 GMT @auxsetreq said:

The eight car 62 stock had two smoking cars which were the 2000 compressor trailers. If I remember correctly they were built in Derby, the rest of the train was MetCam. Don't forget for the interior of whatever train you are modelling to include a patina of nicotine yellow on the Formica and stick a fag butt in there for that authentic smell. They were absolutely revolting............

They were indeed revolting and I'd like to take credit for having contributed to that state of affairs, but Oracle is right in what he says about being able to get a seat. Travelling from Woodford to North Acton and back every day was an absolute uncrowded pleasure if you happened to smoke in those days!

Regarding the modelling, I would assume that to keep it to scale a good choice for fag butts would be small sections of raw spaghetti dipped firstly in tippex for the remaining unsmoked bit and then finished with a dark grey permanent marker pen for the ash. Oh, and remember to make sure they get into the scale wooden slatted floor I assume would also feature in the models!

Richard

Yes, utterly foul. The 2000 trailers had a different ceiling to the other cars, it was a gloss painted hardboard kind of material, rather than the Formica ceilings of the other cars. The nicotine used to collect in amber raindrop sized blobs on it's yellowed surface. Coming back eastbound the trailer was the next car up to the guard's gangway. Along with the brake dust the fag smoke used to get absorbed in my uniform. The worst being the light grey summer issue, which went nicotine yellow too. One's hair lathered up grey and what one used to sneeze out.....!......

[Deleted]

There was smoking on Eurostar when it was started.

A couple of times I was with a party booked into one of the smoking cars - which was otherwise empty except for people booked into no-smoking cars, who came along for a smoke.

[Phil]

Aug 18, 2010 10:44:31 GMT Tomcakes said:

The last smoking trains on the national network finished in 2006, I believe the day before the general smoking ban was introduced. I think only GNER and Virgin allowed it by that point. It was often irritating that the smoking coach was frequently less busy compared to the others.

You forgot FGW who also left it as late as possible to comply.

And why "irritating that....."? (1) You at least had a choice to sit there or not, and (2) (more obviously) if it had been a non-smoker it would have been just as busy as the rest so there'd have been no benefit anyway........

[metman]

I remember smoking on Eurostar! Glad its gone.

I've been doing some research. The three car units of O/P stock had non-smoking in the middle trailer cars, I have plenty of photos to show this. What I don't have are a lot of good photos of 2 car O/P stock trains.

I do have a shot of 13264 at Harrow which was one of 6 P1 stock cars. The P1 cars were not provided with guards panels as they, along with 19 'A' end O stock cars were placed into 2 car units and added to 6 car trains in the peaks.
The photo at Harrow shows this 'A' end car with non smoking! Therefore I'm going to make an assumption that the 'A' end cars in the 2 car units were non-smoking. This means that when the 5 car trains ran on the Circle Line 1947-1958 there were 2 non-smoking cars. When the Circle line trains were converted to CO/CP and lengthened to 6 cars, I guess the non-smoking cars moved to the trailers.

As an aside, I notice, about the time of the delivery of the A stock, the trailer cars became smoking and the motors non-smoking!

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2010 10:44:31 GMT Tomcakes said:

The last smoking trains on the national network finished in 2006, I believe the day before the general smoking ban was introduced. I think only GNER and Virgin allowed it by that point. It was often irritating that the smoking coach was frequently less busy compared to the others.

If you are referring to the general smoking ban in terms of the wider UK and not just railways, that was July 1st 2007. I remember it well as I am a regular gig goer and went to my first non smoking gig on the 2nd or 3rd of July and it was amazing!

I left the venue not stinking of other peoples smoke for the first time ever! Don't know what it is (or was?) about gigs but they seemed to attract a large % of smokers!

So much better these days!

In respect to railways, I seem to remember GNER being the last (or one of) TOCS to allow smoking

I was a commuter on Virgin in the mid 00's and they certainly banned smoking before GNER did

Pendolino's were phased in from around mid/late 03 and had replaced loco's and coaches on the WCML by Spring (ish) 05, give or take the odd peak hour turn

from memory, pendolino's were never fitted for smoking, but I stand to be corrected!

I reckon Virgin must have gone non smoking around summer 02/03 when loco hauled finished on the XC network and pendolino's started to come in on the WCML

Edited to say that pendolino's from memory had entered service in mid/late 02, my memories of late 03 was that loco and coaches was getting rarer and they had started to deliver the 9 car sets in late 03 (where as the original batch up to 39003x, had been 8 cars)