Class 378 DC operation

[Deleted]

I have just been informed that 2 x diagrams are to begin 378 operation from Monday 28th June. 4 car units are to be used so I would assume they would be 378/2s.

No other details as yet.

Regards

Martin

[Deleted]

Are there any extra new trains available for the DC line or will they have to buy more new ones?

[Deleted]

57 class 378 units were ordered. 20 are 378/1 DC only for the East London Railway. The remaining 37 are made up of 24x378/1 dual-voltage units to be converted to 378/2 by the addition of a 4th car later this summer. 10x378/2 units which will be delivered direct as 4 car dual voltage and finally 3x378/2 dual voltage units as a growth build for ELR Phase 2. The total of 57 units is more than enough to operate all LO services save for the GOB Line which will remain DMU operated until electrification. The only change currently being considered for the 378 units is when a 5th car might be needed - currently assumed to be from 2013 onwards.

[andypurk]

Jun 22, 2010 13:37:15 GMT futurix said:

Are there any extra new trains available for the DC line or will they have to buy more new ones?

24 class 378/0 units (3 car dual voltage) were originally ordered to replace the 21 class 313 and 3 class 508 units, so no extra new units would be needed.

Some of the class 378/2 units(4 car dual voltage), ordered later, will be used for increased services on the North and West London line, once all the upgrade work is finished.

[astock5000]

Jun 22, 2010 15:42:35 GMT andypurk said:

24 class 378/0 units (3 car dual voltage) were originally ordered to replace the 21 class 313 and 3 class 508 units, so no extra new units would be needed.

There were 23 class 313/1s, so there were 26 units. But the closure of Stratford - North Woolwich means that only 24 new units are needed for the current NLL / WLL / DC services.

[superteacher]

Jun 22, 2010 13:04:58 GMT @atlantean221 said:

I have just been informed that 2 x diagrams are to begin 378 operation from Monday 28th June. 4 car units are to be used so I would assume they would be 378/2s.

No other details as yet.

Regards

Martin

So it's the beginning of the end for the 313's . . . (at least on London Overground).

[andypurk]

Jun 22, 2010 18:38:20 GMT astock5000 said:

Jun 22, 2010 15:42:35 GMT andypurk said:

24 class 378/0 units (3 car dual voltage) were originally ordered to replace the 21 class 313 and 3 class 508 units, so no extra new units would be needed.

There were 23 class 313/1s, so there were 26 units. But the closure of Stratford - North Woolwich means that only 24 new units are needed for the current NLL / WLL / DC services.

You're quite right, I'd miscounted the 313/1s. Although the 23 class 313s were sufficient for both routes for a long time, before the 508s were added in 2003.

[andypurk]

Jun 22, 2010 19:16:55 GMT superteacher said:

Jun 22, 2010 13:04:58 GMT @atlantean221 said:

I have just been informed that 2 x diagrams are to begin 378 operation from Monday 28th June. 4 car units are to be used so I would assume they would be 378/2s.

No other details as yet.

Regards

Martin

So it's the beginning of the end for the 313's . . . (at least on London Overground).

More like the middle of the end The beginning was at the timetable change last December, when the first units became available for Southern.

[metman]

Least all the trains will survive I think.

I saw a pair of four car 378/2 at Willesden last week, know doubt said trains.

Aother question, will the seating ever be upgraded to tranverse seats?

[andypurk]

Jun 22, 2010 21:14:32 GMT metman said:

Least all the trains will survive I think.

Yes, 19 units to Southern, the rest to the Great Northern part of First Capital Connect. (The 508s don't seem to have a new home).

I saw a pair of four car 378/2 at Willesden last week, know doubt said trains.

Yes, units 228 and 229 have been there for several days now.

Aother question, will the seating ever be upgraded to tranverse seats?

I've seen a quote which said transverse seating would be fitted after the Olympics, but we shall have to see.

[Deleted]

There will NOT be any transverse seating retrofitted to the 378 units - FULL STOP! Take it from someone inside TfL London Rail who knows what he's talking about - I mean me of course!!!!

[andypurk]

Jun 22, 2010 21:42:56 GMT @timdunning said:

There will NOT be any transverse seating retrofitted to the 378 units - FULL STOP! Take it from someone inside TfL London Rail who knows what he's talking about - I mean me of course!!!!

Well Boris, at a meeting in February, apparently promised transverse seating after the Olympics, so we shall see. Remember that there are plans for a fifth car for the units and that could have a different seating arrangement or lead to alterations to the existing cars.

found on London Connections blog, comment by Kofi about halfway down:

londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2010/02/in-pictures-new-overground-class-172s.html

[Deleted]

^{Well Boris, at a meeting in February, apparently promised transverse seating after the Olympics, so we shall see. Remember that there are plans for a fifth car for the units and that could have a different seating arrangement or lead to alterations to the existing cars.}

In my briefing note to Boris I told him NOT to mention transverse seating as there are NO plans or indeed money in the budget for this. The trouble is he insists on saying things to satisfy his right wing supporters, none of whom actually travel on these trains! In any case he probably won't be Mayor after May 2012 so I don't think we need concern ourselves. Just like his 'new bus for London' this fantasy of his will be consigned to the scrap heap of history!

[Deleted]

As an employee of LOROL, i would like to know where all this talk of five car class 378s has come from, the staff are unaware, the Managers are unaware and even the MD since inception has never spoken about 5 car operation.

If indeed as some or one has mentioned on here about 5 car operation why indeed has Lorol and Network Rail seen fit to extend platforms on the NLL to only four car operation?

I will ask my union reps to ask Management about this idea and see what the answer is.

Any evidence from LOROL, The Mayors office, City Halll and Transport for London would help most greatly. Not roumours and speculation that just wouldnt wash.

[harlesden]

The bay road at Willesden Junction LL could never take a 5-car and, to my eyes, could not be extended to do so.
Aside from that, I couldn't see the high-ups even thinking about 5 cars until they have seen how 4 cars pans out.

[Dstock7080]

Jun 23, 2010 10:07:54 GMT @routemasterkeith said:

As an employee of LOROL, i would like to know where all this talk of five car class 378s has come from, the staff are unaware, the Managers are unaware and even the MD since inception has never spoken about 5 car operation.

If indeed as some or one has mentioned on here about 5 car operation why indeed has Lorol and Network Rail seen fit to extend platforms on the NLL to only four car operation?

I will ask my union reps to ask Management about this idea and see what the answer is.

Any evidence from LOROL, The Mayors office, City Halll and Transport for London would help most greatly. Not roumours and speculation that just wouldnt wash.

RAIL magazine, (2 June-15 June) has an article specifically regarding the ELL.
A box containing quotes from Ian Brown (MD TfL London Rail) says:

""We know what we put in our plans justify the scheme", says Brown, wary that the DLR ridership has risen spectacularly from 16m in it's early days to 67m. With some modification, all of the stations can receive five-car trains, even though Brown says that's "not on the cards for some time" and Shoreditch High Street has 'passive provision' for eight-cars! ".

[Deleted]

We in TfL London Rail have been talking about 5 cars for quite some time. However at the moment it is a planning assumption for implementation in 2013 or 2014. You will also notice passive provision for 5 car platforms at most NLL stations including Willesden J High Level. The Low Level bay will be converted to a through road under current planning assumptions.

[andypurk]

It was mentioned at an LURS talk about the Clapham Junction extension to the ELL that there was passive provision for future 5 car operation.

It is to be wondered why many of the 'easy' platform extensions underway on the North London are only adding a little bit to the platforms, rather the full length needed for future 5 car trains. Surely adding another 20m at a later date will be more expensive overall than doing it now.

[andypurk]

Jun 23, 2010 8:42:22 GMT @timdunning said:

^{Well Boris, at a meeting in February, apparently promised transverse seating after the Olympics, so we shall see. Remember that there are plans for a fifth car for the units and that could have a different seating arrangement or lead to alterations to the existing cars.}

In my briefing note to Boris I told him NOT to mention transverse seating as there are NO plans or indeed money in the budget for this. The trouble is he insists on saying things to satisfy his right wing supporters, none of whom actually travel on these trains! In any case he probably won't be Mayor after May 2012 so I don't think we need concern ourselves. Just like his 'new bus for London' this fantasy of his will be consigned to the scrap heap of history!

Was the public ever consulted about the introduction of full longitudinal seating? The Metropolitan line commuters will have a mix on their S-stock trains, but passengers on the DC line (many journeys of over 30 mins) don't seem to have had a say.

[Deleted]

^{Was the public ever consulted about the introduction of full longitudinal seating? The Metropolitan line commuters will have a mix on their S-stock trains, but passengers on the DC line (many journeys of over 30 mins) don't seem to have had a say.}

Good lord, if we consulted about everything nothing would ever get done! In any case the average journey time on LO is 21.7 minutes so longitudinal seating in a high density inner suburban unit is optimal. The S8 stock on the Met is aimed at 'Amersham Man' with average journey times of 45-55 minutes.

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2010 12:37:55 GMT @timdunning said:

We in TfL London Rail have been talking about 5 cars for quite some time. However at the moment it is a planning assumption for implementation in 2013 or 2014. You will also notice passive provision for 5 car platforms at most NLL stations including Willesden J High Level. The Low Level bay will be converted to a through road under current planning assumptions.

So basically what you are saying is that we have had all these closures for upgrades and platform extensions, only for the same thing to take place in 3 /4 years time. The question that needs to asked is why all these platform extensions did not accomodate services of 5 coaches Now rather then later?

[andypurk]

Jun 23, 2010 22:19:33 GMT @timdunning said:

^{Was the public ever consulted about the introduction of full longitudinal seating? The Metropolitan line commuters will have a mix on their S-stock trains, but passengers on the DC line (many journeys of over 30 mins) don't seem to have had a say.}

Good lord, if we consulted about everything nothing would ever get done! In any case the average journey time on LO is 21.7 minutes so longitudinal seating in a high density inner suburban unit is optimal. The S8 stock on the Met is aimed at 'Amersham Man' with average journey times of 45-55 minutes.

But LO is a similar split of journey times to the Met line, some long distance (especially on the DC lines) and some shorter. Why pander to 'Amersham Man' and not 'Hatch End' man? After all, most of the Met journeys are as inner suburban as the LO.

[Chris M]

Have you ever travelled on a peak inner suburban LO train? On the 313s with transverse seating you can't move.
The inner suburban parts of the Met are served by three lines giving 20-odd tph, on parts of LO the equivalent figure is 4 tph.

I am not a frequent LO user, but in my limited experience the longitudinal seating is one of the best features of the 378s.

[andypurk]

Jun 24, 2010 0:25:48 GMT Chris M said:

Have you ever travelled on a peak inner suburban LO train? On the 313s with transverse seating you can't move.
The inner suburban parts of the Met are served by three lines giving 20-odd tph, on parts of LO the equivalent figure is 4 tph.

I am not a frequent LO user, but in my limited experience the longitudinal seating is one of the best features of the 378s.

Yes I have, frequently. The problem is the balance between a couple of hours of really busy peak time use on the NLL and longer journeys on less busy sections and/or at slightly quieter times.

I'm not saying the the 378s should be all transverse, just that the lack of seats overall is not good for the use that the trains see. Why should passengers have to stand on less busy trains because TfL have seen fit to have a design with a lower number of seats. A class 313/1 seats 202 (already less than the original design), a 3 car class 378 seats 112 and a 4 car class 378 seats 152. The four car class 378 units should have been designed to have approximately the same number of seats as the 313s, as a balance for the various uses that the units see.

[Rich32]

Jun 23, 2010 22:53:41 GMT @routemasterkeith said:

Jun 23, 2010 12:37:55 GMT @timdunning said:

We in TfL London Rail have been talking about 5 cars for quite some time. However at the moment it is a planning assumption for implementation in 2013 or 2014. You will also notice passive provision for 5 car platforms at most NLL stations including Willesden J High Level. The Low Level bay will be converted to a through road under current planning assumptions.

So basically what you are saying is that we have had all these closures for upgrades and platform extensions, only for the same thing to take place in 3 /4 years time. The question that needs to asked is why all these platform extensions did not accomodate services of 5 coaches Now rather then later?

Most stations on the temporarily closed section (i.e. Gospel Oak - Stratford) already have 5-car provision on their platforms put in during the closure. Only Dalston remains to be finished AFAIK.

[Deleted]

Two diagrams start from Saturday 26th June with 1st trains 0527 ex Euston and 0541 ex Watford

[dazz285]

Lets hope that the drivers have had their training ;-)

[dpb]

Jun 24, 2010 9:25:50 GMT Rich32 said:

Jun 23, 2010 22:53:41 GMT @routemasterkeith said:

So basically what you are saying is that we have had all these closures for upgrades and platform extensions, only for the same thing to take place in 3 /4 years time. The question that needs to asked is why all these platform extensions did not accomodate services of 5 coaches Now rather then later?

Most stations on the temporarily closed section (i.e. Gospel Oak - Stratford) already have 5-car provision on their platforms put in during the closure. Only Dalston remains to be finished AFAIK.

I got on at Kentish Town West today (for a change) and their platform extensions look barely long enough for 4 cars, let alone 5. The same for the extension to Gospel Oak westbound.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2010 17:54:09 GMT dpb said:

Jun 24, 2010 9:25:50 GMT Rich32 said:

Most stations on the temporarily closed section (i.e. Gospel Oak - Stratford) already have 5-car provision on their platforms put in during the closure. Only Dalston remains to be finished AFAIK.

I got on at Kentish Town West today (for a change) and their platform extensions look barely long enough for 4 cars, let alone 5. The same for the extension to Gospel Oak westbound.

That was the point i was making, but what i will do is when it goes 4 car early next year i will list those stations that will need further extension work done to them.

As an aside the platform extensions to Brondesbury are built to a far better spec and using proper bricks and mortar then the rest of the station, sometimes feels one heavy foot will put you through the platform.

[dazz285]

I'm only guessing at this but at Willesden TMD today were 378228 & 378229. Perhaps these 2 will be the first 378(2)'s going on the DC ?