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Post by dpb on May 28, 2011 16:46:22 GMT
Couple of questions. Whereabouts is 378234? I don't think I've ever seen it on the NLL. Wikipedia (which is clearly out of date) says 232 and 233 are on the ELL which is correct, so is 234 also on there? Secondly, any idea when 378255-257 are due to be completed and delivered? 234 has not entered traffic. It returned to Derby from Ashford last October and is still at Litchurch Lane, where it has been sighted reliably by various people. Reports elsewhere suggest that 378255-257 will appear after NXEA's Class 379s are completed - so that should be in the next couple of months given progress thus far on the 379s. Why has 234 been at Derby since October and not made it to Willesden? Was it used for helping convert the 378/0s to 378/2s or something?
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Post by patstonuk on May 31, 2011 21:12:08 GMT
At last! 378234 reported up through Harpenden about an hour ago being delivered (apparently) to Ashford. Presumably for recommissioning.
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Post by dpb on Jun 1, 2011 0:37:59 GMT
How long, roughly, then from Ashford to in passenger service?
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Post by patstonuk on Jun 1, 2011 20:35:53 GMT
How long, roughly, then from Ashford to in passenger service? To be truthful, haven't a clue! Used to be about a week back and forth to Redhill for DC testing then IIRC it'll then have to do its AC testing based on WN. If all goes well maybe about 2/3 weeks before service entry. I expect some of the LOROL chaps on here will know better and hopefully will keep us in the picture.
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Post by patstonuk on Jun 2, 2011 17:14:31 GMT
How long, roughly, then from Ashford to in passenger service? To be truthful, haven't a clue! Used to be about a week back and forth to Redhill for DC testing then IIRC it'll then have to do its AC testing based on WN. If all goes well maybe about 2/3 weeks before service entry. I expect some of the LOROL chaps on here will know better and hopefully will keep us in the picture. An update - 378234 ran from Ashford to New Cross Gate last night and is scheduled to undertake a test run from NXG to Dalston Jcn and return on Saturday morning. Or so I'm told!
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Post by dpb on Jun 2, 2011 22:01:09 GMT
Presumably that means it's likely to spend its days on the ELL like 232 and 233.
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Post by astock5000 on Jun 2, 2011 22:03:55 GMT
To be truthful, haven't a clue! Used to be about a week back and forth to Redhill for DC testing then IIRC it'll then have to do its AC testing based on WN. If all goes well maybe about 2/3 weeks before service entry. I expect some of the LOROL chaps on here will know better and hopefully will keep us in the picture. Would they need to do AC testing if they decide to use it on the ELL for a while, or could it enter service there and do the testing once it needs to be sent to Willesden?
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Post by andypurk on Jun 2, 2011 22:56:09 GMT
To be truthful, haven't a clue! Used to be about a week back and forth to Redhill for DC testing then IIRC it'll then have to do its AC testing based on WN. If all goes well maybe about 2/3 weeks before service entry. I expect some of the LOROL chaps on here will know better and hopefully will keep us in the picture. Would they need to do AC testing if they decide to use it on the ELL for a while, or could it enter service there and do the testing once it needs to be sent to Willesden? Trains need to run so many miles, fault free, on both AC and DC before they can be accepted from Bombardier. Of course, I don't know if this applies to unit 234 as it has may have done the mileage before returning to Derby.
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Post by patstonuk on Jun 3, 2011 21:03:40 GMT
Would they need to do AC testing if they decide to use it on the ELL for a while, or could it enter service there and do the testing once it needs to be sent to Willesden? Trains need to run so many miles, fault free, on both AC and DC before they can be accepted from Bombardier. Of course, I don't know if this applies to unit 234 as it has may have done the mileage before returning to Derby. 234 spent just over a month based at Ashford, having been delivered on the 31 August last and returned to Derby on (IIRC) 8 October and as I posted at the time this was for "further work to be carried out". AFAIK no AC running has taken place.
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Post by flippyff on Jun 4, 2011 12:41:46 GMT
378 231 & 234 were both visible in New Cross Gate Depot when I went past at 13:00.
Simon
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Post by dpb on Jun 4, 2011 16:18:52 GMT
So that means 231-234 are all going to be used for ELL services?! Will they ever be swapped with other 378/2s, possibly to get some AC running under their belt?
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Post by andypurk on Jun 4, 2011 20:56:46 GMT
So that means 231-234 are all going to be used for ELL services?! Will they ever be swapped with other 378/2s, possibly to get some AC running under their belt? 231 has already run for several months (at least July 2010-Jan 2011) based at Willesden Junction and not on the East London Line. Transfers between the two systems will become easier when (or is it if) the connection between the ELL and NLL at Highbury and Islington is commissioned and when the ELL reaches Clapham Junction. Also, as I said earlier (as well as patstonuk), all the units should have at least a test run on AC before being accepted, otherwise they can't really be signed off.
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Post by redbond on Jun 9, 2011 10:02:48 GMT
234 has been running in passenger service on ELL last couple of days.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 22:58:04 GMT
The future stock requirements seem interesting, as TfLs Howard Smith is once again discussing the 5-car option. It looks as though 255 - 57 are to go to the ELL initially, as the peak loadings are heavy. I couldn't believe the heavy crowding on the 22.45 Stratford - Richmond on Sat 30 July. Packed and 100 punters waiting at Hackney Central. In the short term regular users must press TfL for more frequent evening services. Half-hourly is not enough even with 4 cars.
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Post by andypurk on Aug 1, 2011 23:36:31 GMT
The future stock requirements seem interesting, as TfLs Howard Smith is once again discussing the 5-car option. It looks as though 255 - 57 are to go to the ELL initially, as the peak loadings are heavy. Surely 255-257 were always going to the ELL anyway, as they are the extras needed for when the extension to Clapham Junction opens. As it stands, no more units are needed on the NLL / WLL / DC line services. Indeed, and I was also surprised at the number of people waiting for the first Stratford bound service on Sunday morning (09.00 from Willesden Junction), although it was a particularly warm day.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 16:09:14 GMT
Yes, Andypurk is right, the last 3 units were nominally purchased for the Clapham link. But a quarter-hourly service from Surrey Quays alone will mop up those 3 units, and the full service to Dalston should mean the total requirement of maybe 6 sets, and surely at least 5. Does a round trip of 75 minutes sound reasonable? The implication was that these might be needed to provide a service boost at peaks, even before the Clapham link opens. How might this work? More short workings to New Cross maybe for summer of 2012? Any ideas anyone? With 54 units now available, and the pressure of running high-peak services for much of the day in a year's time, is there sufficient slack in the system to run those Olympic specials?
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Post by andypurk on Aug 3, 2011 22:45:00 GMT
Yes, Andypurk is right, the last 3 units were nominally purchased for the Clapham link. But a quarter-hourly service from Surrey Quays alone will mop up those 3 units, and the full service to Dalston should mean the total requirement of maybe 6 sets, and surely at least 5. Does a round trip of 75 minutes sound reasonable? But the ELL also has more than the necessary number of class 378/2 to run the existing service. The 20 class 378/1 would just about have been sufficient for the initial Dalston - New Cross / Crystal Palace / West Croydon service and the full size of the class 378/2 fleet running from New Cross Gate isn't really needed until the Clapham Junction service starts. I would say that they could already run extra peak services Dalston Junction - Surrey Quays / New Cross with the existing fleet size (20 x class 378/1 and 3 x class 378/2), providing that maintenance can be fitted in between the peaks and using the unit which sits spare at Dalston Junction. The bigger problem would probably be reversing the service at the southern end of the route, as the New Cross branch currently has a train on the single track section for fairly large proportion of each hour and even reducing the turnaround time may not be sufficient to allow more than 6 trains per hour to run.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2011 12:49:07 GMT
The bigger problem would probably be reversing the service at the southern end of the route, as the New Cross branch currently has a train on the single track section for fairly large proportion of each hour and even reducing the turnaround time may not be sufficient to allow more than 6 trains per hour to run. They could be run into the depot and then back.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2011 8:54:32 GMT
I wonder how long it is going to be before the serious process of expanding NLL capacity, and trains will be lengthened to 5-car sets? Assuming there is a factory to build them!
The problem is that so many stations will need further alterations, more platform extensions, etc., jobs which should have been done with the recent works, or at least preparation for them.
5-car on the ELL seems a touch more problematical, not with classic ELL stations like Wapping and Rotherhithe, but also at Whitechapel, where some new infrastructure seems to be in the way.
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Post by flippyff on Sept 4, 2011 10:05:58 GMT
<snip> The problem is that so many stations will need further alterations, more platform extensions, etc., jobs which should have been done with the recent works, or at least preparation for them. 5-car on the ELL seems a touch more problematical, not with classic ELL stations like Wapping and Rotherhithe, but also at Whitechapel, where some new infrastructure seems to be in the way. I'm sure the current northern ELL staircase is due to be removed as part of the Crossrail-ification of Whitechapel? Simon
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Post by andypurk on Sept 4, 2011 13:25:33 GMT
I wonder how long it is going to be before the serious process of expanding NLL capacity, and trains will be lengthened to 5-car sets? Assuming there is a factory to build them! The problem is that so many stations will need further alterations, more platform extensions, etc., jobs which should have been done with the recent works, or at least preparation for them. If you look at the works undertaken for the 4 car expansion, many of the resultant platforms are already long enough for 5 cars (maybe occasionally using Selective Door Opening (SDO) for the rear set of doors). I don't think five cars will be a big problem for the NLL / DC lines. Some work will be needed on the WLL, but those platforms are due for lengthening to 8 car anyway. On the DC lines, the bay platform at Willesden Junction will need the final work already planned to make it a through platform. As SDO will already be needed, I don't think there will be a big problem on the ELL, the above ground stations are already long enough. The big mistake in the past was only building Canada Water ELL with 4 car platforms.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2011 15:09:28 GMT
As far as I know 378s don't have the SDO facility.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2011 15:13:52 GMT
The bigger problem would probably be reversing the service at the southern end of the route, as the New Cross branch currently has a train on the single track section for fairly large proportion of each hour and even reducing the turnaround time may not be sufficient to allow more than 6 trains per hour to run. They could be run into the depot and then back. I think the Dalston to New Cross services are lightly loaded even at peak times. It's the Crystal Palaces/West Croydons that seem to be rammed.
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Post by dazz285 on Sept 4, 2011 15:29:48 GMT
As far as I know 378s don't have the SDO facility. It's there in the computer but needs software modding.
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Post by andypurk on Sept 4, 2011 19:46:40 GMT
As far as I know 378s don't have the SDO facility. As Dazz285 has said, they have it, but it isn't 'available' at the moment. As it will be needed for any extended ELL services, it would have been extremely silly not to have had the possibility there, especially as all other modern EMUs have a similar facility.
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Post by edwin on Sept 4, 2011 22:47:45 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to increase the capacity of the ELL through more frequent trains? Unlike the NLL, the route isn't used by freight traffic so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. However even on the NLL i question the point of extending the trains. I've never been on it where it has been so busy that I can't get a seat, even in the peaks.
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Post by bicbasher on Sept 4, 2011 23:00:05 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to increase the capacity of the ELL through more frequent trains? Unlike the NLL, the route isn't used by freight traffic so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. However even on the NLL i question the point of extending the trains. I've never been on it where it has been so busy that I can't get a seat, even in the peaks. Fine for the core section of the ELL, however they share the line south of NXG with Southern who squeeze in 4tph offpeak and 6tph peak between NXG and Sydenham. Plus I doubt they could get more than the 4tph on the West Croydon branch, although it seems 5tph in the peaks from Crystal Palace is viable.
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Post by andypurk on Sept 5, 2011 13:05:32 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to increase the capacity of the ELL through more frequent trains? Unlike the NLL, the route isn't used by freight traffic so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. However even on the NLL i question the point of extending the trains. I've never been on it where it has been so busy that I can't get a seat, even in the peaks. But the NLL has seen a vast increase in peak frequencies (now a train every 7-8 minutes) since the class 378s took over. The 4 car class 378 actually has about the same number of seats as the 3 car class 313s which they replaced and the old peak timetable suffered from severe overcrowding. There are certainly trains were you can't get a seat at the moment and overcrowding is especially bad on the West London Line part of the route (all LO trains now run to/from Stratford from/to Clapham Junction during the peak). Increasing train length will be cheaper in terms of rolling stock than ordering extra trains (less cabs and motor vehicles needed) to run a more frequent service and as has been said much of the infrastructure can already take 5 car length units. Longer trains also need less staff than extra services.
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Post by Deep Level on Sept 5, 2011 14:05:02 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to increase the capacity of the ELL through more frequent trains? Unlike the NLL, the route isn't used by freight traffic so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. However even on the NLL i question the point of extending the trains. I've never been on it where it has been so busy that I can't get a seat, even in the peaks. I was on the ELL the other day where I was heading to West Croydon but I got on the first train at Canada Water which was a Crystal Palace train to see if I could catch an earlier Croydon train from New Cross Gate but this was not to be, this train was almost empty. Then when the West Croydon train pulled in about 10 - 15 minutes later it was absolutely packed out, I couldn't get a seat, I wash squashed and I swear the boy standing behind me (who moved to stand behind me) was trying to put his hand in my pocket. Although I will say that I did manage to get a seat from Anerly.
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Post by bicbasher on Sept 5, 2011 14:24:38 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to increase the capacity of the ELL through more frequent trains? Unlike the NLL, the route isn't used by freight traffic so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. However even on the NLL i question the point of extending the trains. I've never been on it where it has been so busy that I can't get a seat, even in the peaks. I was on the ELL the other day where I was heading to West Croydon but I got on the first train at Canada Water which was a Crystal Palace train to see if I could catch an earlier Croydon train from New Cross Gate but this was not to be, this train was almost empty. Then when the West Croydon train pulled in about 10 - 15 minutes later it was absolutely packed out, I couldn't get a seat, I wash squashed and I swear the boy standing behind me (who moved to stand behind me) was trying to put his hand in my pocket. Although I will say that I did manage to get a seat from Anerly. Did you go during the peak or off peak? NXG has 2tph to East Croydon on the slow line and 2tph from Platform 3 which are fast to Norwood Junction. These run during the off-peak & Saturdays. Southern also operate additional services to West Croydon during the evening peak and on Sundays.
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