Unusual photo of Baker Street SB

[Deleted]

www.anorakheaven.com/photos/bkm02.jpg

The above photo is on Anorak Heaven and shows the signalman using the push button console to control the new IMR 'MB' before the SCC was opened. The curious part of the photo is the fact that the frame has most of its levers 'centered', neither normal nor reverse. The only other place I've seen this is in a photo of the frame that used to live at Rayners Lane, where a caption stated that the route control levers required some of the remaining levers to be centered as well.

It's quite obvious that the old frame at Baker Street was disconnected and dead, but why would the levers be centered? Was it a quirk of the K frame design?

[Tom]

They were probably secured in that position post-commissioning. Why I don't know, but I'll ask a few people who were covering the Baker St area in that era.

[Deleted]

I *think* [scratches head] that on some frames, [not sure where exactly], where there was not enough space to fit in a bigger frame, some levers were effectively 'doubled up, so, for example, youd push the lever to 'normalise' the points, or pull it to throw them the other way. This was in operation in Horsham signalbox on the Nat. Rail system, when I did my Work Experience. Great fun that was too! At this box, if you left the lever 'centered' the points would stay in the last position, until pulled or pushed right over.

[citysig]

Not to answer any part of this thread (I'll leave that to the technical chaps) but a bit of a useless fact (I'm good for them ;D )

The signalman pictured, Mr Cook, was always compared to as my twin brother. We did look similar years ago. However, he turned down the opportunity to work the "new" Baker Street and went to work for a tube line. What a waste of all that experience ;D

[Deleted]

citysig said:

Not to answer any part of this thread (I'll leave that to the technical chaps) but a bit of a useless fact (I'm good for them ;D )

The signalman pictured, Mr Cook, was always compared to as my twin brother. We did look similar years ago. However, he turned down the opportunity to work the "new" Baker Street and went to work for a tube line. What a waste of all that experience ;D

www.anorakheaven.com/photos/bkmscc01.jpg

So which one are you then?

[Deleted]

tubeoperator92 said:

I *think* [scratches head] that on some frames, [not sure where exactly], where there was not enough space to fit in a bigger frame, some levers were effectively 'doubled up, so, for example, youd push the lever to 'normalise' the points, or pull it to throw them the other way. This was in operation in Horsham signalbox on the Nat. Rail system, when I did my Work Experience. Great fun that was too! At this box, if you left the lever 'centered' the points would stay in the last position, until pulled or pushed right over.

Rayners Lane and Finchley Road are both examples of push-pull N2M(?) frames. Harsig has diagrams of both sites with the signal/point labels showing H for push and L for pull. AFAICT these types of frames worked on the route-setting principle, where a single lever, controlling two routes, would work a stack of signals and points for moving a train from point A to point B - a mechanical type of NX, I guess.

[Deleted]

[quote author=theonekea board=Signals thread=1132835674 post=1133106553

Rayners Lane and Finchley Road are both examples of push-pull N2M(?) frames. Harsig has diagrams of both sites with the signal/point labels showing H for push and L for pull. AFAICT these types of frames worked on the route-setting principle, where a single lever, controlling two routes, would work a stack of signals and points for moving a train from point A to point B - a mechanical type of NX, I guess.[/quote]

Yeah, we had RS enabled in Horsham box 'too. If the 'King Lever' was 'slotted over' [in operation], you could set up a route with just one, or [if coming out of no4 platform during peak hours only shuttles] lever operated. I used to have great fun with the King Lever 'out' and doing moves manually. The 'environment below the operating floor was something to marvel at. See through glass boxes, referred to as Fishtanks, containd dall the circuitry for signals, points and interlockings. When I was down there, Fred [the old chap in charge of the box] would set up a route manually; there'd be the noise of the levers being thrown over, and then a quick succession of electric clicks and bangs. Oh what fun it all was. Wish I could relive it all, just for one day

[Tom]

theonekea said:

Rayners Lane and Finchley Road are both examples of push-pull N2M(?) frames. Harsig has diagrams of both sites with the signal/point labels showing H for push and L for pull. AFAICT these types of frames worked on the route-setting principle, where a single lever, controlling two routes, would work a stack of signals and points for moving a train from point A to point B - a mechanical type of NX, I guess.

N P/P frames is the correct name. N2 is a motorised N, why the WBS Frame website calls them N2M (M is suspect indicating motorised) is beyond me, as any N2 is motorised.

It's not quite an equivalent of the NX, as there is no need to specify an exit. It's a route lever frame with a different lever for each route, and the later technology using route buttons developed from this. I've got some circuitry for the route lever frame part of Drayton Park (controlling Finsbury Park) and it's interesting to say the least.

P.S. Citysig isn't in that picture. I did show it to a colleague of ours (the 'Old Boy', who remembers Day 1) and he could still name all of the people in it.

[Deleted]

tom said:

N P/P frames is the correct name. N2 is a motorised N, why the WBS Frame website calls them N2M (M is suspect indicating motorised) is beyond me, as any N2 is motorised.

Someone ought to e-mail that guy and let him know that he's getting it wrong...

I always thought that an 'N' frame was the electrical+mechanical type specified by Dell for the New Works interlockings, and that 'N2' was the push-pull type, as IIRC you once said that any 'N' frame could be easily motorised.

tom said:

It's not quite an equivalent of the NX, as there is no need to specify an exit. It's a route lever frame with a different lever for each route, and the later technology using route buttons developed from this. I've got some circuitry for the route lever frame part of Drayton Park (controlling Finsbury Park) and it's interesting to say the least.

Thanks for the clarification. I only referred to it as a mechanical NX because it uses the same sort of 'route' principles, i.e. a single control for a single route working multiple trackside bits of equipment.

tom said:

P.S. Citysig isn't in that picture. I did show it to a colleague of ours (the 'Old Boy', who remembers Day 1) and he could still name all of the people in it.

Thanks for the info. I'm assuming that the Old Boy is someone like Q8 then...

[Tom]

N2 is an N style frame that has had the lever catch handles removed and air valves/motors fitted for remote control.

Push-pull frames still have the catch handles, but use a different series for lever positions:
H, HK, M, LK, L as opposed to N, A, B, C, D, E, R.

The old boy is the longest serving AET at Baker Street, who has been there since pre-SCC days. Citysig and I use 'old boy' to identify him as a private joke between the two of us.

[Deleted]

tom said:

N2 is an N style frame that has had the lever catch handles removed and air valves/motors fitted for remote control.

Thanks for the clarification.

tom said:

Push-pull frames still have the catch handles, but use a different series for lever positions:
H, HK, M, LK, L

H - pushed reverse
HK - pushed reverse, held by interlocking
M - middle (normal)
LK - pulled reverse, held by interlocking
L - pulled reverse

tom said:

as opposed to N, A, B, C, D, E, R.

Are the five lettered positions similar to HK and LK then, in that a lever in that position is being held by another part of the interlocking (either in the frame or trackside)?

tom said:

The old boy is the longest serving AET at Baker Street, who has been there since pre-SCC days. Citysig and I use 'old boy' to identify him as a private joke between the two of us.

Ah, I see. I compared him to Q8 in terms of his knowledge about LU.

[citysig]

theonekea said:

www.anorakheaven.com/photos/bkmscc01.jpg

So which one are you then?

As Tom said, I am not old enough to be in that picture ;D (well I know he didn't actually say that, but I'm saying it ;D )

Of those pictured, only one person still works in the SCC. We also have almost twice as much railway as they had then. Not featured in the picture is one of the first people to operate the kit at Baker Street (when we just had Stanmore). Funnily enough that "old boy" retired at the end of last week.

The "old boy" Tom is referring to has been assisting me of late to bring our equipment into the 21st Century, so I've seen a lot more of him lately than normal. Normally he hides in a small hole in the depths of the building - when he's not hibernating in the west country that is ;D

[Deleted]

theonekea said:

www.anorakheaven.com/photos/bkmscc01.jpg

So which one are you then?

I know the second from the left!

[Tom]

theonekea said:

H - pushed reverse
HK - pushed reverse, held by interlocking
M - middle (normal)
LK - pulled reverse, held by interlocking
L - pulled reverse

HK - Push Indication
M - Mid
LK - Pull Indication.

[Tom]

citysig said:

[Of those pictured, only one person still works in the SCC. We also have almost twice as much railway as they had then. Not featured in the picture is one of the first people to operate the kit at Baker Street (when we just had Stanmore). Funnily enough that "old boy" retired at the end of last week.

Which one still works there then? I don't recognise any of them (perhaps it's because they're still youthful in the pic?).

[citysig]

Third from left, as you look at the picture. Look closely. You must know him ;D