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Post by metrolander on Oct 18, 2010 22:32:49 GMT
So, this evening I took a rather extended chill on the bridge over Primrose Hill station/the run into Euston, basically in the hope of quenching my strange yearning to see a train running through Primrose Hill (primarily the LO ECS move as has been described on other recent threads)
As it turned out, I didn't see this, although there was one point when I thought I might have been about to; from my position on the side of the bridge facing towards Euston, I heard the unmistakeable sound of a class 378 drawing to a halt. Having read others' observations of going over the tracks to Primrose Hill very slowly, being aware of an electrification change etc I thought I was about to luck in so peered that much more keenly over the bridge, my anticipation building particularly when I heard the even more unmistakeable sound of the 378 moving off. However, it was not in fact going to Primrose Hill it was going to Euston on the WCML slow line as per perfectly usual, except for one thing; the pantograph was raised and the train was clearly drawing power from the wires... Que?
I was/am aware that by this point the DC trains run along the slow lines and hence power is available both above and below, and I've been aware (combination of youtube/posts on here I think) of 378s having operated into/out of Euston on AC - IIRC during testing as they were being rolled out on LO.
But why would this be happening on what appeared to be a regular service train? Furthermore, to add to the strangeness, I saw a second 378 going in on AC (and nowhere near 20 minutes later suggesting one of these was not a pax working?), whilst the next one a bit later on went in on DC. In terms of down workings, once again as one came out on the slow lines, it was on the wires - must admit I can't recall now if the saloon lights were on or not for this one but I wonder, would this have been proceeding along the slow lines or stopping before the DC tunnels to change over? I didn't hear it stop... As confirmation that things were normal, the next one which came out was on DC.
Any enlightenment most welcome
EDIT: ps if it helps at all, the first shadow AC 378 would've got into Euston at about 2115...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2010 22:44:47 GMT
I don't know what the official stance used to be/still is, but I believe DC drivers were once instructed to raise the pan when entering Euston, partly due to power supply issues with 4 car units. When the 378's first entered service on the DC, I remember that there were numerous failures which possibly resulted in the need for AC power.
Whether this is still the case, I do not know.
Martin
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Post by metrolander on Oct 18, 2010 23:11:03 GMT
Ah sounds about right son; I for some reason had just always presumed they went in and out on the 3rd rail; I don't often use Euston so have never really observed
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Post by glenntandh on Oct 19, 2010 3:03:45 GMT
I would say that what metrolander saw were ECS moves to Euston for stabling. Silverlink and now LOROL stable quite a few units in Euston overnight on the west (Melton St) side. DC services always run on DC throughout, I don't think the DC lines start running under the wires until they start "burrowing under" to reach "The Wood" (platforms 9/10). Bit puzzled by the comment that he saw one leaving Euston on AC though. I think we need help and clarification from Daz and SomersetChris.
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Post by harlesden on Oct 19, 2010 6:11:13 GMT
It might be a dumb question, but is it possible for a driver to inadvertently raise his pantograph whilst in motion, and if he did so, what would happen?
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Post by patstonuk on Oct 19, 2010 8:58:57 GMT
It might perhaps be AC mileage accumulation as presumably those units delivered to New Cross Gate from Ashford will have undertaken DC mileage only. I'm thinking particularly of 202 and 232-234, acknowledging that 202 has been working on the DC Lines but has it yet been out to play on the NLL/WLL? Furthermore, if 232/233 are still on the ELL and 234 has not returned from Derby, these will need 'proving' on AC in due course.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 9:38:05 GMT
It might be a dumb question, but is it possible for a driver to inadvertently raise his pantograph whilst in motion, and if he did so, what would happen? Oh most certainly this has happened in the past! Not privy to the workings and technical details of the 378's, but certainly with the 313's, a complete stop was necessary, and then the driver had to press a reset button for the trains electronics. Certainly now with more computer controlled software on the trains, the system will recognise where power is being drawn from. However, incidents in the past have occurred whereby a pantograph has been raised too early before the wires start, and brought them down. Or in the case of Eurostars before the Rail Link got built, they used the 3rd Rail from Waterloo until just east of Sandling and then raise the pantograph, or drop it coming into the UK... there were numerous incidents of Sandling Tunnel being hit with a pantograph and indeed many times the remains of the pantograph then hit the footbridge at Sandling station itself! Maybe the unit in question was merely testing after works attention at Willesden? |
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Post by astock5000 on Oct 19, 2010 11:38:14 GMT
It might perhaps be AC mileage accumulation as presumably those units delivered to New Cross Gate from Ashford will have undertaken DC mileage only. I'm thinking particularly of 202 and 232-234, acknowledging that 202 has been working on the DC Lines but has it yet been out to play on the NLL/WLL? Furthermore, if 232/233 are still on the ELL and 234 has not returned from Derby, these will need 'proving' on AC in due course. Units 201/225/226 were also running on the ELL for a while. I didn't know 234 had gone back to Derby - there hasn't been much info on the 378s posted recently, so I'm not completely sure where some of the units are. It seems to be: Willesden: 378003 - 007/009/012/013/015/017 - 024 378201/202/208/210/211/214/225 - 231 New Cross: 378135 - 154 378232/233 Derby: 378216/234 (and 4th cars for other units) Not yet built: 378255 - 257 Is this correct? |
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Post by patstonuk on Oct 19, 2010 12:54:20 GMT
It might perhaps be AC mileage accumulation as presumably those units delivered to New Cross Gate from Ashford will have undertaken DC mileage only. I'm thinking particularly of 202 and 232-234, acknowledging that 202 has been working on the DC Lines but has it yet been out to play on the NLL/WLL? Furthermore, if 232/233 are still on the ELL and 234 has not returned from Derby, these will need 'proving' on AC in due course. Units 201/225/226 were also running on the ELL for a while. I didn't know 234 had gone back to Derby - there hasn't been much info on the 378s posted recently, so I'm not completely sure where some of the units are. It seems to be: Willesden: 378003 - 007/009/012/013/015/017 - 024 378201/202/208/210/211/214/225 - 231 New Cross: 378135 - 154 378232/233 Derby: 378216/234 (and 4th cars for other units) Not yet built: 378255 - 257 Is this correct? Yes. Spot on! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:08:36 GMT
So, this evening I took a rather extended chill on the bridge over Primrose Hill station/the run into Euston, basically in the hope of quenching my strange yearning to see a train running through Primrose Hill (primarily the LO ECS move as has been described on other recent threads) As it turned out, I didn't see this, although there was one point when I thought I might have been about to; from my position on the side of the bridge facing towards Euston, I heard the unmistakeable sound of a class 378 drawing to a halt. Having read others' observations of going over the tracks to Primrose Hill very slowly, being aware of an electrification change etc I thought I was about to luck in so peered that much more keenly over the bridge, my anticipation building particularly when I heard the even more unmistakeable sound of the 378 moving off. However, it was not in fact going to Primrose Hill it was going to Euston on the WCML slow line as per perfectly usual, except for one thing; the pantograph was raised and the train was clearly drawing power from the wires... Que? I was/am aware that by this point the DC trains run along the slow lines and hence power is available both above and below, and I've been aware (combination of youtube/posts on here I think) of 378s having operated into/out of Euston on AC - IIRC during testing as they were being rolled out on LO. But why would this be happening on what appeared to be a regular service train? Furthermore, to add to the strangeness, I saw a second 378 going in on AC (and nowhere near 20 minutes later suggesting one of these was not a pax working?), whilst the next one a bit later on went in on DC. In terms of down workings, once again as one came out on the slow lines, it was on the wires - must admit I can't recall now if the saloon lights were on or not for this one but I wonder, would this have been proceeding along the slow lines or stopping before the DC tunnels to change over? I didn't hear it stop... As confirmation that things were normal, the next one which came out was on DC. Any enlightenment most welcome EDIT: ps if it helps at all, the first shadow AC 378 would've got into Euston at about 2115... It could have been ECS from Willesden TMD to Euston or if a passenger train, going via A Road (which looks like the up fast to you) which does not have a third rail. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:09:05 GMT
I don't know what the official stance used to be/still is, but I believe DC drivers were once instructed to raise the pan when entering Euston, partly due to power supply issues with 4 car units. When the 378's first entered service on the DC, I remember that there were numerous failures which possibly resulted in the need for AC power. Whether this is still the case, I do not know. Martin Not any longer |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:10:29 GMT
I would say that what metrolander saw were ECS moves to Euston for stabling. Silverlink and now LOROL stable quite a few units in Euston overnight on the west (Melton St) side. DC services always run on DC throughout, I don't think the DC lines start running under the wires until they start "burrowing under" to reach "The Wood" (platforms 9/10). Bit puzzled by the comment that he saw one leaving Euston on AC though. I think we need help and clarification from Daz and SomersetChris. I cannot say for certain, but would guess that it might have been going out via D Road (looks like the down fast to you). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:12:10 GMT
It might be a dumb question, but is it possible for a driver to inadvertently raise his pantograph whilst in motion, and if he did so, what would happen? The driver can raise the pan on the move, but the buttons are placed in a position where it is most unlikely anyone ever would. What would happen is the pan would go up and hopefully touch some wires. If there was no wires there the pan would come down again! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:14:34 GMT
It might be a dumb question, but is it possible for a driver to inadvertently raise his pantograph whilst in motion, and if he did so, what would happen? Oh most certainly this has happened in the past! Not privy to the workings and technical details of the 378's, but certainly with the 313's, a complete stop was necessary, and then the driver had to press a reset button for the trains electronics. A 313 could raise the pan on the move. But the difference on a 378 is that the reset button is not used with the raise pan button as it was on a 313 |
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Post by dpb on Oct 19, 2010 18:48:19 GMT
I'm thinking particularly of 202 and 232-234, acknowledging that 202 has been working on the DC Lines but has it yet been out to play on the NLL/WLL? 202 has definitely been on the NLL. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 19:24:54 GMT
I have seen 313's runing down the WCML 25KV relief to Euston in the past and in Euston with their pans up. So why would it be any different now that 378's are running the service?
Xerces Fobe
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 22:53:37 GMT
A bit off topic - but just to clarify:
All the 378/2s (that's the ones built as 4 cars and those that have had the extra coach fitted) have worked the DC and NLL/WLL except for 233 which is still on the ELL, and 211 which has just arrived back from Derby. Some (201/202/225/233) have also been used on the ELL.
Martin
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Post by metrolander on Oct 19, 2010 23:48:00 GMT
E, and indeed, gad...
I was in the midst of composing a COLOSSALLY detailed reply to the flurry of reponses and slight questions raised, when I made a schoolboy error frankly too embarassing to describe, losing it all in the process... D'OH!
Now, it's too late so I may well come back to various things (I had myself been pondering many of the pantograph-related questions that have been asked purely as a result of my various observations) but a few quick (or not so quick, I can't help it) points;
As far as I could discern from my position there were 4 or 5 running lines visible, ALL the 378s I saw and most certainly those I paid particular attention to went in and out on the same lines - what I assume MUST be the up/down slow (2nd and 3rd from the left as I looked). My basis for this assumption was perhaps not clear from my OP but part of my confusion for the mixture of modes was that it was all over the same tracks; indeed, the main reason I didn't think I was seeing things in the bad light (having incorrectly assumed previously that trains ran on DC in normal service) was the sparking coming from either the wire or the rail at the same point going round the bend (up).
But definitely the same tracks! I paid particular attention to the 5 described before, can't remember the in/out order but up they went AC, AC, DC (insert bad heavy metal joke here) and down AC, DC (perhaps better placed here??)
The other tracks were up fast on the left (definitely - this was pretty much only Pendolinos which are LOUD round that bend and a Sleeper), and I had thought just the down fast to the far right but I was slightly confused to see a 350 heading toward Euston in that area; subsequent re-checking of the aerial view suggests there is another line here; It's hard enough to discern that layout even after familiarising yourself with the best information on Google but the main problem was I was stood at the other end of the bridge pretty much over the up fast so it was hard to make out all the details in the poor light! Further to the right of all of that were the buffer stop ends of whichever sidings those are.
Glenntandh; I'm clearly no expert but the aforementioned research driven by my curiosity on the area having singularly failed to work it out by eye one day (I didn't know the DC lines split underground, shame...) leads me to believe that the DC's merge into the slows pretty much directly before/after they dive under the tunnel entrances, so therefore they'd be under the wires pretty much to/from that point? Certainly, what I saw with my own eyes (as well as that Google earth recap) reaffirms this belief. As far as I gather from the same source (and as is perhaps the most obvious feature of this particularly labrynthine (sp?) area to observe from above), the up fast is on the far left at the point from which I was looking having flown over the whole slow/dc up and under faff between the tunnel mouths and the other side of the bridge; I guess perhaps a gradient to go along with the bend is why the noise inbound Pendolinos make suddenly becomes shocklingly evil at that particular point...
I wonder if the slight additional detail might help promote further chin-stroking on this subject. I also feel the need to re-visit and corroborate my findings, shame it's dusk by afternoon now!
CIAO
(sub-edited)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 21:22:54 GMT
It was some time ago, but I do recall having been on a 313 that stopped and switched from DC to AC supply on the approach to Euston. This was to enable the train to access a platform at Euston; for some reason neither platform 9 nor platform 10 was available.
I guess that another reason for switching could be if there is a problem with the DC supply in the immediate area of Euston. However, I don't know where the DC current rail sections are in that area.
On the subject of raised pantographs, I can remember some time ago having been on a 319 on the Watford Junction - Brighton service. For some reason the pantograph stayed up when it should have gone down where the unit should have changed from AC to DC at North Pole. The unit duly lost its pantograph when it hit the A40(M) (as was) road bridge - with a flash and a loud bang! The train made it into Kensington Olympia, presumably on DC power, where the damage was inspected (and the train taken out of service!).
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Post by jacko1 on Oct 25, 2010 18:45:54 GMT
on leckie locos,if the pan went up with no wires,a devise called the ADD(auto dropping device)kicked in . this stopped the pan breaking its back by dropping the pan back down.it then had to be reset by a fitter getting on the roof (not under the wires) of course!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 23:26:21 GMT
on leckie locos,if the pan went up with no wires,a devise called the ADD(auto dropping device)kicked in . this stopped the pan breaking its back by dropping the pan back down.it then had to be reset by a fitter getting on the roof (not under the wires) of course! I always remember a 313 on a Euston-Watford stuck at Queens Park in 1993 with it's Pan fully raised and stuck above the platform canopy with a handfull of fitters on the roof and on the platform trying to work out what to do next. How it happened I'll never know but apparently it was there for hours! Very amusing...!! ;D Martin |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 11:18:04 GMT
on leckie locos,if the pan went up with no wires,a devise called the ADD(auto dropping device)kicked in . this stopped the pan breaking its back by dropping the pan back down.it then had to be reset by a fitter getting on the roof (not under the wires) of course! All trains with pans have this, loco or unit |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 19:40:31 GMT
I had no idea these trains attracted so much attention. Do most rail fans wish they were train drivers ?
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Post by childwallblues on Nov 3, 2010 23:17:56 GMT
378202 was in service on the Watford Line on 19 October.
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